My opinion of the debate material.....

[robycop3]

I've read many of the posts in this forum w/o comment, so I'm gonna make my one-and-only comment. I don't care who agrees or disagrees; I'll say that my opinion has been formed by reading eleven Bible versions cover-to-cover many times.

Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism represent the extreme ends of the spectrum. The TRUTH is somewhere close to the middle. BOTH views are supported by Scripture, but not the EXTREME views. Clearly, God predestined some people such as Moses, Jeremiah, & John the Baptist for special service, while Jesus often used the words "whosoever will". If everyone were already predestined, then why does Jesus tell us to spread the Gospel? And if no one were predestined, then why did God tell Jeremiah He knew him before he was formed in his mother's womb? And why did Jesus choose Paul from among the honest Pharisees?

No one's opinion concerning this issue is likely to change, & mine certainly won't...so I'm not gonna bore you or myself with this subject again. God Bless you, and Happy Holidays. C'ya in some other forum!

In Christ,

Cranston

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by robycop3:
I've read many of the posts in this forum w/o comment, so I'm gonna make my one-and-only comment. I don't care who agrees or disagrees; I'll say that my opinion has been formed by reading eleven Bible versions cover-to-cover many times.

Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism represent the extreme ends of the spectrum. The TRUTH is somewhere close to the middle. BOTH views are supported by Scripture, but not the EXTREME views. Clearly, God predestined some people such as Moses, Jeremiah, & John the Baptist for special service, while Jesus often used the words "whosoever will". If everyone were already predestined, then why does Jesus tell us to spread the Gospel? And if no one were predestined, then why did God tell Jeremiah He knew him before he was formed in his mother's womb? And why did Jesus choose Paul from among the honest Pharisees?

No one's opinion concerning this issue is likely to change, & mine certainly won't...so I'm not gonna bore you or myself with this subject again. God Bless you, and Happy Holidays. C'ya in some other forum!

In Christ,

Cranston

Hi Cranston,

What are the odds that you are wrong?

 

[Southern]

Cranston,

Nice to meet you brother.

Hyper-Calvinism and hyper-Arminianism represent the extreme ends of the spectrum. The TRUTH is somewhere close to the middle.

I believe what has historically been labeled "Hyper-Calvinism" is in error along with Arminianism. But orthodox Calvinism from the line of the 1689 Baptist and Philadelphia Confession is not this type.

Clearly, God predestined some people such as Moses, Jeremiah, & John the Baptist for special service,

He also predestines people to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13;John 6:37;Acts 13:48;Rom. 8:29;John 10:16,27)

while Jesus often used the words "whosoever will".

While I believe "whosoever will", you seem to assume that this implies some universal "ability". This phrase does not imply a universal ability but is a descriptive term. It means "All the ones believing":


The KJV even translates the same Greek word in the following way showing that it is just descriptive:

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices (Greek: pas ho poiwn) righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29)

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves (Greek: pas ho agapwn) is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

There is no Calvinist that would deny that everyone who or "whosoever" believes in Christ will be saved... This is not under debate. However, the ability of fallen man to believe is not even discussed in this passage.

If everyone were already predestined, then why does Jesus tell us to spread the Gospel?

Because God has not only ordained the ends (salvation) but also the means (preaching of the gospel)(2 Thes. 2:13). They will not be saved "willy nilly". All those ordained to eternal life have to and will believe (Acts 13:48). Those He predestined He also "called" (Rom. 8:29).

In Christ

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />While I believe "whosoever will", you seem to assume that this implies some universal "ability". This phrase does not imply a universal ability but is a descriptive term. It means "All the ones believing":

The KJV even translates the same Greek word in the following way showing that it is just descriptive:[/quote
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices (Greek: pas ho poiwn) righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29)

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves (Greek: pas ho agapwn) is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)</font>[/QUOTE]Both of these thoughts are about knowing those who are born again. Everyone (all) who practice righteousness, and everyone (all) who loves are born again.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is no Calvinist that would deny that everyone who or "whosoever" believes in Christ will be saved... This is not under debate. However, the ability of fallen man to believe is not even discussed in this passage.

If everyone were already predestined, then why does Jesus tell us to spread the Gospel?

Because God has not only ordained the ends (salvation) but also the means (preaching of the gospel)(2 Thes. 2:13). They will not be saved "willy nilly". All those ordained to eternal life have to and will believe (Acts 13:48). Those He predestined He also "called" (Rom. 8:29).</font>[/QUOTE]There is nothing willy-nilly in "whosoever believeth". It is Whosoever, OUT OF ALL, who hear, and believe, that shall have everlasting life... God allows us to hear his Word, and to make the choice to believe in Him for ourselves.

 

[Southern]

Wes,

Both of these thoughts are about knowing those who are born again. Everyone (all) who practice righteousness, and everyone (all) who loves are born again.

Exactly, it is describing those who are born again. And John 3:16 is describing believers as those who have "eternal life". However it does not mention the ones who will or will not believe.

There is nothing willy-nilly in "whosoever believeth". It is Whosoever, OUT OF ALL, who hear, and believe, that shall have everlasting life... God allows us to hear his Word, and to make the choice to believe in Him for ourselves.

Yes, all the ones believing out of all men will be saved. When we hear the word we do make a choice. However, the only ones who "choose" Christ (believe) are the ones appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

Conclusion- What did any of this have to do with my post? If I missed something please point it out.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Exactly, it is describing those who are born again. And John 3:16 is describing believers as those who have "eternal life". However it does not mention the ones who will or will not believe.

It seems you have misread John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." Believeth, Not perish, and have everlasting life are all future tense, not present or past tense. The verse is ANTICIPATORY! and does not describe the "existing".

Yes, all the ones believing out of all men will be saved. When we hear the word we do make a choice. However, the only ones who "choose" Christ (believe) are the ones appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Conclusion- What did any of this have to do with my post? If I missed something please point it out.

Clearly, God predestined some people such as Moses, Jeremiah, & John the Baptist for special service,</font>[/QUOTE]He also predestines people to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13;John 6:37;Acts 13:48;Rom. 8:29;John 10:16,27)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> while Jesus often used the words "whosoever will".

While I believe "whosoever will", you seem to assume that this implies some universal "ability". This phrase does not imply a universal ability but is a descriptive term. It means "All the ones believing"</font>[/QUOTE]In your post you are clearly saying that "whosoever" means the same thing as the following scriptures that you posted.

The KJV even translates the same Greek word in the following way showing that it is just descriptive:

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices (Greek: pas ho poiwn) righteousness is born of Him. (1 John 2:29)

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves (Greek: pas ho agapwn) is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

The truth is the two posted scriptures are descriptive, where John 3:16 is not, It is anticipatory in that Jesus is declaring the whosoever does believe in Him, will not perish, but will instead have everlasting life! anticipatory in that it is dependent upon what some yet unnamed person believes.

 

[Southern]

Wes,

You are still "assuming" that whosoever implies some universal ability on behalf of fallen man. What proof do you offer? We are not told.

The verse doesn't even address ability, rather it simply says that all the ones believing will have eternal life:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." (New Revised Standard Version Bible)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." (NLT)


"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." (HCSB)


Conclusion- I believe that everyone (whosoever) who believes will not perish and have eternal life. However this is a longshot from saying that all men have this ability, which is what you affirm.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I can do that too!

-- King James
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-- American Standard
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

-- Living Bible
John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

-- Revised Standard
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

-- Simple English
John 3:16 God loved the people of the world so much that He gave up His only Son. Every person who commits himself to Jesus will not be destroyed. Instead, that person will have eternal life.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
John 3:16 Hou'toos ga'r eega'peesen ho Theo's to'n ko'smon, hoo'steto'n Huio'n to'n monogenee' e'dooken, hi'na pa's ho pisteu'ooneis auto'n mee' apo'leetai all e'chee zooee'n aioo'nion.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
John 3:16 Houtos gar egapesen ho Theos ton kosmon, hosteton Huion ton monogene edoken, hina pas ho pisteuoneis auton me apoletai all eche zoen aionion.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world:
he gave his only Son,
so that everyone who believes in him may not perish
but may have eternal life.


-- Young's Bible
John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

-- Darby's Bible
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
John 3:16 For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.

-- Webster's Bible
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

NO I am not assuming some "universal ability" but rather an individual, God given, ability in each of the images of God resulting from God's creation.

Every human who has lived, is living, or will live, has that God given ability to hear God's word. Then upon hearing the word to "digest" with his own spirit, and determine whether or not he believes the word, and thus believes the object of the word, God's only begotten Son, and yes the triune Godhead. It is a matter of individual belief in God by which man is saved by God!

There is no such thing as collective belief or collective salvation. Each person must come to belief within himself. I cannot believe for you, nor you for me. It is only the believers in Jesus, who is GOD the son, that receive everlasting life. All others get cast into the lake of fire.

What makes you think that every man does not have the ability to believe? What scripture has caused you to arrive at that conclusion? Is it "the great fall" in genesis? If so, can you tell me exactly what happened to the man that changed him from perfectly capable to totally incapable?

 

[Ray Berrian]

-- Weymouth's New Testament--

'John 3:16 For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.'

I think this translation appeals most to me. Wes, you are right in you understanding of God's dealing with His human creatures, namely men and women.

 

[rc]

Southern,

Changing translations doesn't matter... descriptive is descriptive... as Wes has shown by all of the translations... it's the proper understanding of the Greek that matters and the context... Even in Greek 101 the "whosever" can only be translated literally "those believing ones"... it is VERY particular and descriptive. The problem with Arminians is that they don't want to take the time or they can't understand the differance between imperatives and indicatives.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Then why does Jesus say, using your definition, "...those believing ones who believeth (anticipatory tense) in Him, should....." If they are already believing in him why is it they must believeth in him or perish? Your definition simply does not make sense in the structure of the thought.

 

[robycop3]

What are the odds for my being wrong about the truth lying somewhere in between? Not very long.

Yes, some ARE predestined to salvation. BUT...Can you name anyone predestined to HELL? It's a gimme that those predestined to special service are also predestined to salvation. But if EVERYONE were already predestined, then what's the use of worship? What's the use of having a Bible? What's the use of working for God at all if it's not gonna change anything in anyone's life?

"Whoever will" is straightforward, no other meaning intended by Jesus. Any other meaning presented is ADDING to what the Gospel writers recorded as His words.

Nothing's gonna change my mind. You ladies & gents can fight this'n out among yourselves. I've been studying false doctrines too long to have my opinion swayed by anyone's private take of Scripture. After the KJVO myth, Hyper-Cism & Hyper A-ism are two of the most prevalent, and false, doctrines to have invaded the baptist faith. Like KJVOism, these too are man-made false doctrines, but unlike the KJVO myth, the MODERATE forms of each has some Scriptural support.

I'll not be returning to this forum to post again. Have a nice day and GO WITH GOD.

Cranston

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by robycop3:
I'll not be returning to this forum to post again. Have a nice day and GO WITH GOD.

Cranston

That's a pity, because you have demonstrated that, like the rest of us, you have much to learn.

 

[Pastor Larry]

'John 3:16 For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.'

Actually, this is a bad translation. The word translated "so" indicates manner, not magnitude. It is not that he "so greatly loved," but that he "loved in this way."

The old argument about "whosoever will" creeps up yet again. Listen folks: Calvinists believe "whosoever will." Where we differ is what causes a person to "will." ARminians focus on the "whosoever." But the fact is that whosoever must will. If they do not "will" to believe, then they will not be saved.

As for the OP, truth truth does lie in the middle between the hypers, but it lies squarely on the Calvinist side. WE preach the gospel because that is how God is saving those whom he predestined to life. It is neither unnecessary nor redundant. It is part and parcel of God's saving work. YOu also cannot confuse different kinds of choosing. We can "choose" to have prime rib for dinner, and we can choose to move to a new city for a new job. We can choose for whom to vote for president, and we can choose what TV we will watch. All are choices; all are very different. That fact that God chose a nation and chose a prophet does not mean that he does not also choose people to be saved. The Scripture clearly teaches that all three are appropriate uses of "choose" or "elect."

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The old argument about "whosoever will" creeps up yet again. Listen folks: Calvinists believe "whosoever will." Where we differ is what causes a person to "will." ARminians focus on the "whosoever." But the fact is that whosoever must will. If they do not "will" to believe, then they will not be saved.

You are falsely representing the Arminian objection when they bring up "whosoever will." We agree that "whosoever must will." Our objection rests on the strong implication that whosoever is able to will.

If I wrote:

"I love this board and have provided a very valuable gift for its members and whosoever asks will receive this wonderful gift."

If I sent this message to every board member, would any member assume anything other than that every member could ask to receive the gift? Of course not. The implication that all can ask and receive is extremely evident, which is why people always quote John 3:16 when first confronted with Calvinistic dogma, which teaches men are born unable to willingly believe Christ's message of reconcilation.

In fact, if after sending out such an announcement you found out that I had only intended the gift for a select few and didn't provide the means for most members to even ask because I really didn't love them, then you know you would question my interigity in making such a statement. That is the objection Arminians are making.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I didn't misrepresent anything. I clearly stated that Where we differ is what causes a person to "will."

You further evidence an misunderstanding of inability. Everyone is able to believe physically. They are morally unable. Their sin has blinded them and made them unwilling. THey are kept from salvation by nothing other than their own impenitence. The objection of the arminians on that point is unfounded. God is not keeping anyone from believing. All who want to come may indeed come.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
God is not keeping anyone from believing. All who want to come may indeed come.

Amen, Amen, Amen.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I didn't misrepresent anything. I clearly stated that Where we differ is what causes a person to "will."

No its not. We BOTH believe the word causes the person to willingly believe. The difference is that you don't believe anyone is able to willingly believe unless they are first regenerated and if they are regenerated they certainly will believe.

You further evidence an misunderstanding of inability. Everyone is able to believe physically. They are morally unable. Their sin has blinded them and made them unwilling. THey are kept from salvation by nothing other than their own impenitence. The objection of the arminians on that point is unfounded. God is not keeping anyone from believing. All who want to come may indeed come. [/QB]

Larry you know full well that this doesn't avoid the argument. If you notice I even said, "unable to WILLING believe" because I knew you were going to use the pat answer smoke screen. Are you now arguing that all men are able to "willingly" believe? I don't think you want to go there, do you? If their willing then they have desire and that is where the inability is in your system.

Hmmm. Maybe its you who doesn't understand.

And what does it mean for a person to be able to "physically believe?" What does that mean exactly Larry? Do they do jumping jacks or something while saying over and over, "I believe, I believe." How do you "Physically Believe?" What is physical about believing!?! This is just a diversion to avoid dealing with the problem of responsiblity your system creates.

Plus, in my analogy I intentially made it so that the members weren't wanting the gift as you suggest. I said that my "intent" was only to give it to a few, which is perfectly representative of your views of Unconditional Election. And that I didn't provide the means for them to ask, which acurately represents your view Total Depravity, in which men are born UNABLE to willingly believe.

Now please stop with the smoke screens and deal with how the obvious implications of men's ability in John 3:16 are properly handled within system.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The difference is that you don't believe anyone is able to willingly believe unless they are first regenerated and if they are regenerated they certainly will believe.

Which is what I said ... We differ on the cause. Regeneration is the cause. It works in conjunction with the word.

And what does it mean for a person to be able to "physically believe?" What does that mean exactly Larry?

It means that the problem is not in their intellect per se. It is like being able to breathe. They can. They simply choose not to because of their moral blindness.

Now please stop with the smoke screens and deal with how the obvious implications of men's ability in John 3:16 are properly handled within system.

We have dealt with this ad nauseum, Skan. Anyone who is willing to believe may believe. The rest do not want to believe. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The difference is that you don't believe anyone is able to willingly believe unless they are first regenerated and if they are regenerated they certainly will believe.

Which is what I said ... We differ on the cause. Regeneration is the cause. It works in conjunction with the word.</font>[/QUOTE]

If Regeneration were the cause of faith then there wouldn't be a need for the gospel. The word, even in your system, is the cause for faith. But its only effective for those who have been regenerated. I know you know this, I'm just stating it because you accuse me of not understanding your system.

And what does it mean for a person to be able to "physically believe?" What does that mean exactly Larry?

It means that the problem is not in their intellect per se. It is like being able to breathe. They can. They simply choose not to because of their moral blindness.[/quote][/qb] I understand how one phyically breathes, which is why I'm sure you used it as an analogy. But I asked how one believes physically? You claim they are able to believe physically and I'm wanting to know how that is possible.

I think you know its not and such an arguement is pure non-sense and nothing more than a smoke screen to avoid your problem of accountability.

We have dealt with this ad nauseum, Skan. Anyone who is willing to believe may believe. The rest do not want to believe. Why is that so hard to understand?

It amazes me how you Calvinists assume that people don't accept your dogma simply because they don't truly understand it. You seem to think that if somehow you can make us really understand your system that we will certainly accept it.

Its more than they do not want to believe Larry. It is that they are unable to want to believe, which affords the exact same argument your orginial smoke screen attempts to avoid.