My opinion of the debate material.....

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
It amazes me how you Calvinists assume that people don't accept your dogma simply because they don't truly understand it. You seem to think that if somehow you can make us really understand your system that we will certainly accept it.

It's because you all keep saying things like this:

If Regeneration were the cause of faith then there wouldn't be a need for the gospel.

When I read things like that it is clear to me that you don't understand what we are saying.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
It amazes me how you Calvinists assume that people don't accept your dogma simply because they don't truly understand it. You seem to think that if somehow you can make us really understand your system that we will certainly accept it.

It's because you all keep saying things like this:

If Regeneration were the cause of faith then there wouldn't be a need for the gospel.

When I read things like that it is clear to me that you don't understand what we are saying. </font>[/QUOTE]You obviously didn't follow the entire discussion. You can't have faith in Christ without the gospel, can you?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
You obviously didn't follow the entire discussion. You can't have faith in Christ without the gospel, can you?

I followed the whole discussion. No, you can't have faith in Christ without the gospel. You can't have faith in Christ without regeneration, either.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
You obviously didn't follow the entire discussion. You can't have faith in Christ without the gospel, can you?

I followed the whole discussion. No, you can't have faith in Christ without the gospel. You can't have faith in Christ without regeneration, either. </font>[/QUOTE]Which was exactly my point when I wrote, "If Regeneration were the cause of faith then there wouldn't be a need for the gospel." Regeneration alone is not enough even in your system to "CAUSE" belief, but the gospel is still a direct cause for belief even for Calvinists. I don't agree with the Calvinistic teaching that regeneration proceeds faith but I certainly understand it. Larry was accusing me of not understanding that concept as it relates to inability, but he had failed to notice that I said, "unable to WILLINGLY believe," which does indeed perfectly apply to the Calvinistic teaching of inability.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Which was exactly my point when I wrote, "If Regeneration were the cause of faith then there wouldn't be a need for the gospel." Regeneration alone is not enough even in your system to "CAUSE" belief, but the gospel is still a direct cause for belief even for Calvinists.

We say that faith has a cause (the Holy Spirit's quickening work) and an object (the gospel - Christ's death for our sins, burial and resurrection). To say that "if regeneration caused faith then there wouldn't be a need for the gospel" is to say that faith needs no object, which is nonsense. The gospel is the object of faith for Calvinists - not the cause. The Holy Spirit's gracious work of regeneration is the cause.

 

[Skandelon]

Silly me, I thought Christ was the object of our faith and the gospel was the means by which we learn of Him.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Pastor Larry;

Their sin has blinded them and made them unwilling.

What no scripture to back this up? Where does the Bible say our sin has blinded us.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Silly me, I thought Christ was the object of our faith and the gospel was the means by which we learn of Him.

See, I knew you weren't getting it.

The gospel, which Paul defines this way - "that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve" - this is what we believe, it is that in which we stand, that which we hold to. This is what we preach, and it is what we believe - Christ, and Him crucified. When you say that Christ is the object of our faith, you mean Christ who died for our sins and rose again for our justification, so you and I are saying the same thing.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
See, I knew you weren't getting it.

The old, "if he doesn't agree with me, he must not understand me" defense.

I'm sick of it.

The gospel, which Paul defines this way - "that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve" - this is what we believe, it is that in which we stand, that which we hold to. This is what we preach, and it is what we believe - Christ, and Him crucified. When you say that Christ is the object of our faith, you mean Christ who died for our sins and rose again for our justification, so you and I are saying the same thing.

So, you don't make any distinction between Christ and the message about Christ? Odd.

My hope is for Christ's return, not the gospel's return. My relationship is with Christ, not the gospel. I experience comfort and guidance from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not merely from reading the scripture.

The gospel is a thing. Christ is a person. The gospel is a means to faith not the object of faith. I think most Calvinists would affirm that. Its surprises me that you don't.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
The old, "if he doesn't agree with me, he must not understand me" defense.

No, it's "he's responding to things I'm not saying, he must not understand me."

So, you don't make any distinction between Christ and the message about Christ? Odd.

I don't think it's weird. Paul told the Corinthians that all he had preached to them was the gospel. He also told the Corinthians that all he had preached to them was Christ crucified. He spoke of the two as the same thing.

My hope is for Christ's return, not the gospel's return. My relationship is with Christ, not the gospel. I experience comfort and guidance from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not merely from reading the scripture.

The gospel is a thing. Christ is a person. The gospel is a means to faith not the object of faith. I think most Calvinists would affirm that. Its surprises me that you don't.

The gospel is Christ crucified, buried, and risen again. That's who my relationship is with, and that who has sent the Holy Spirit to be my comfort and guide. That's who will return. I think you are making too much of this.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
The gospel is Christ crucified, buried, and risen again. That's who my relationship is with

The gospel is WHO your relationship is with? The gospel is now a person?

I think you are making too much of this.

Maybe so, but I'm having fun watching you try to pull yourself out of this while trying to maintain on the other thread your argument, "the gospel alone saves no one."

You put these two arguments together you've got, "'Christ crucified, buried, and risen again' 'saves no one.'"

It's quite entertaining.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whatever:
The gospel is Christ crucified, buried, and risen again. That's who my relationship is with

The gospel is WHO your relationship is with? The gospel is now a person?

I think you are making too much of this.

Maybe so, but I'm having fun watching you try to pull yourself out of this while trying to maintain on the other thread your argument, "the gospel alone saves no one."

You put these two arguments together you've got, "'Christ crucified, buried, and risen again' 'saves no one.'"

It's quite entertaining. </font>[/QUOTE]Christ crucified, buried, and risen again is who my relationship is with. And the gospel "message" alone, which is what you started off talking about, saves no one. At least I can entertain you.

 

[Skandelon]

I'm just messing with you brother. :wink:

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
I'm just messing with you brother. :wink:

That's easy to do tonight. I've been off since 12/24 and I have to go back to work tomorrow. Plus football is almost done for the year.