Same agrument. There is no shortage of those who have predicted certain events to occur, who have since been shown to be wrong. I again note Hal Lindsey, who pointed to scriptural prophecy as support for predicting certain events to occur. He turned out not only to be wrong, but dead wrong. And he's still doing it, without even having acknowleged his errors of past predictions.
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My Outline of Endtime Events for 2006 Study
- Thread starter Mel Miller
- Start date
Mel Miller
New Member
Dear John,
I can see why you are so cautious about dates!
No wonder! You are a Data Analyst!!
Being cautious is why I gave the 50-Event Order as "My Outline". I cannot prove #1 has been in process of fulfillment under several Presidents.
But on Friday, day before Christmas Eve, 1988,
I thought I saw Seal One being fulfilled on reading a Wall-Street Editorial about "An Ideology for all Seasons."
My instant thought was: "Why not an Ideology
for all Nations"?
On Christmas Eve, I called my best friend who had been the youngest captain in the Vietnam War
because he had asked me in October what I thought about the Rider on the White Horse.
He excitedly responded that he had come to the
same conclusion the night before on hearing former President Reagan and David Brinkley discuss the hope of "tearing down the Berlin Wall" (which happened in the next year, 1989).
We checked the meaning of "bow," the instrument
used by the White Horseman in "going forth conquering in order to conquer". It means to "give birth thru travail; to be victorious through struggle".
So, I cannot prove the timing even of #1 in
the order of 50 events of My Outline, but it seems quite obvious that none of the other 49 might precede it. I do put the Ezek.38-39 war
in brackets because I don't know if it could
have referred to the 1967 War over Jerusalem.
I just wonder what the "spoil" might be that
causes the nations to attack Israel in a time
of "peace". But it is surely the time when
the "nations will know that God has taken
the side of Israel." Ezek.39:23,28.
John, thanks for you kind responses.
BTW, today I entered a new word in the Merriam-
Webster Open Dictionary. It was Lastday. Please look it up in Yahoo and tell me what you think.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
I can see why you are so cautious about dates!
No wonder! You are a Data Analyst!!
Being cautious is why I gave the 50-Event Order as "My Outline". I cannot prove #1 has been in process of fulfillment under several Presidents.
But on Friday, day before Christmas Eve, 1988,
I thought I saw Seal One being fulfilled on reading a Wall-Street Editorial about "An Ideology for all Seasons."
My instant thought was: "Why not an Ideology
for all Nations"?
On Christmas Eve, I called my best friend who had been the youngest captain in the Vietnam War
because he had asked me in October what I thought about the Rider on the White Horse.
He excitedly responded that he had come to the
same conclusion the night before on hearing former President Reagan and David Brinkley discuss the hope of "tearing down the Berlin Wall" (which happened in the next year, 1989).
We checked the meaning of "bow," the instrument
used by the White Horseman in "going forth conquering in order to conquer". It means to "give birth thru travail; to be victorious through struggle".
So, I cannot prove the timing even of #1 in
the order of 50 events of My Outline, but it seems quite obvious that none of the other 49 might precede it. I do put the Ezek.38-39 war
in brackets because I don't know if it could
have referred to the 1967 War over Jerusalem.
I just wonder what the "spoil" might be that
causes the nations to attack Israel in a time
of "peace". But it is surely the time when
the "nations will know that God has taken
the side of Israel." Ezek.39:23,28.
John, thanks for you kind responses.
BTW, today I entered a new word in the Merriam-
Webster Open Dictionary. It was Lastday. Please look it up in Yahoo and tell me what you think.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel, the 144K aren't all JEWS...they are all ISRAELIS. All Jews are Israelis, but not all Israelis are Jews. The Jews are the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.
Jesus said:10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.(Luke 21, NKJV)
He also said:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”(Luke 21, NKJV)
I believe many of these things could be caused by the approach of another planet to the earth. Now whether it well be a known member of the solar system or not, I don't know, but just about all the plagues could be caused by such a proximity of another planet. First could be signs in the sun, moon, and stars as the earth could be disturbed in its orbit so that the heavenly bodies' longtime course through the sky would be altered, let alone the appearance of that planet in the sky would be seen. Then, the tides would be affected, with "the sea and the waves roaring" differently from their usual way.
And the hearts of many ungodly men would fail them for fear; they would believe that the earth and the approaching planet were gonna collide, thus accounting for their "expectation of those things which are coming on the earth". And the "powers of the heavens" would certainly be shaken!
Despite all the sci-fi flicks, what could we REALLY do about another planet headed toward earth?
Another happening this would cause is a huge increase in earthquakes. In the days of Hezekiah, many believe the earth and Mars almost collided, which was the physical cause of the sun's reversing its course. There were also great earthquakes over much of the world at that time. However, since Mars' gravity is only 38% of earth's, the devastation on Mars was much worse; most of its atmosphere was stripped away by earth's greater gravity, and every lander on Mars that's sent pics back to earth reveals a surface that resembles an artillery range.
Rather than write a long discourse, I ask that everyone interested please read Revelation's description of the plagues of the seals, trumpets, & vials keeping in mind that an approaching planet would bring along many chunks of space debris orbiting it which could become meteors here. Almost all those plagues could be caused by the proximity of another planet. And who can deny that "something like a great burning mountain" in Revelation is a meteor?
I believe it's possible that God could use this method of bringing on the plagues so that the ungodly won't know it's from God; that it's entirely physical, just "bad luck" or "unfortunate happenstance", etc.
This is just a "possible" scenario...it could be totally wrong. However, if we Christians learn that another planet is on a collision course with earth, we should look up, for our redemption is at hand.
Jesus said:10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.(Luke 21, NKJV)
He also said:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”(Luke 21, NKJV)
I believe many of these things could be caused by the approach of another planet to the earth. Now whether it well be a known member of the solar system or not, I don't know, but just about all the plagues could be caused by such a proximity of another planet. First could be signs in the sun, moon, and stars as the earth could be disturbed in its orbit so that the heavenly bodies' longtime course through the sky would be altered, let alone the appearance of that planet in the sky would be seen. Then, the tides would be affected, with "the sea and the waves roaring" differently from their usual way.
And the hearts of many ungodly men would fail them for fear; they would believe that the earth and the approaching planet were gonna collide, thus accounting for their "expectation of those things which are coming on the earth". And the "powers of the heavens" would certainly be shaken!
Despite all the sci-fi flicks, what could we REALLY do about another planet headed toward earth?
Another happening this would cause is a huge increase in earthquakes. In the days of Hezekiah, many believe the earth and Mars almost collided, which was the physical cause of the sun's reversing its course. There were also great earthquakes over much of the world at that time. However, since Mars' gravity is only 38% of earth's, the devastation on Mars was much worse; most of its atmosphere was stripped away by earth's greater gravity, and every lander on Mars that's sent pics back to earth reveals a surface that resembles an artillery range.
Rather than write a long discourse, I ask that everyone interested please read Revelation's description of the plagues of the seals, trumpets, & vials keeping in mind that an approaching planet would bring along many chunks of space debris orbiting it which could become meteors here. Almost all those plagues could be caused by the proximity of another planet. And who can deny that "something like a great burning mountain" in Revelation is a meteor?
I believe it's possible that God could use this method of bringing on the plagues so that the ungodly won't know it's from God; that it's entirely physical, just "bad luck" or "unfortunate happenstance", etc.
This is just a "possible" scenario...it could be totally wrong. However, if we Christians learn that another planet is on a collision course with earth, we should look up, for our redemption is at hand.
Mel Miller
New Member
Robycop3,
Thank you but I think the term Jews is inclusive.
Here is an interesting discovery:
"Dig finds Jerusalem Jews after Second Temple
New archaeological findings indicate that Jews continued to live in Jerusalem even after the destruction of the Second Temple.
Excavations near the Shuafat refugee camp in northern Jerusalem uncovered what appear to be relics from an active Jewish community that existed after the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 C.E., Ha’aretz reported. The discovery runs contrary to the prevailing wisdom: that Jewish settlement ceased with the Roman onslaught. The Israel Antiquities Authority began digging at the site in 2003.
Archaeologists believe the settlement was Jewish because of the stone vessels they discovered there. The researchers also say stone basins at the site may have held ashes from the destroyed Temple".
IMO, it is correct to refer to the 144,000 as
Jews. That is the way the world distinguishes
them from Gentiles. And Zech.8:23 teaches that,
during the Millennium, when all 12 original
tribes are restored to their land, "ten of the
Gentiles will request a Jew to take them to
worship their God".
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Thank you but I think the term Jews is inclusive.
Here is an interesting discovery:
"Dig finds Jerusalem Jews after Second Temple
New archaeological findings indicate that Jews continued to live in Jerusalem even after the destruction of the Second Temple.
Excavations near the Shuafat refugee camp in northern Jerusalem uncovered what appear to be relics from an active Jewish community that existed after the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 C.E., Ha’aretz reported. The discovery runs contrary to the prevailing wisdom: that Jewish settlement ceased with the Roman onslaught. The Israel Antiquities Authority began digging at the site in 2003.
Archaeologists believe the settlement was Jewish because of the stone vessels they discovered there. The researchers also say stone basins at the site may have held ashes from the destroyed Temple".
IMO, it is correct to refer to the 144,000 as
Jews. That is the way the world distinguishes
them from Gentiles. And Zech.8:23 teaches that,
during the Millennium, when all 12 original
tribes are restored to their land, "ten of the
Gentiles will request a Jew to take them to
worship their God".
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
Friends,
The Day of God's wrath begins with signs in the
sun, moon and stars when the Lamb opens Seal 6!
But the Lamb opens Seal 6 only after the Last
Plague empties in the air and the voice comes
out of the Temple, from the Throne, saying: "It is Done"; The End has Come. Rev.16:17.
Shortly thereafter the Temple opens for the TESTIMONY of Rev.7:9-17, then for the TRIBUNAL of Seal 7 (Rev.8:1-5) and finally for TRIUMPH
of the 7th TRumpet at Rev.11:15-19.
Only then does the Angel announce that "God's
wrath has come and the appointed time" to:
1. Judge the dead [requires the resurrection]
2. Reward the saints [requires the rapture]
3. Destroy the wicked [requires armies to be
gathered to Armageddon] . . . the very context
in which God decrees the End has Come and Jesus
says: "Behold I come as a thief; blessed is he
who keeps his garments lest he be seen naked"!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
The Day of God's wrath begins with signs in the
sun, moon and stars when the Lamb opens Seal 6!
But the Lamb opens Seal 6 only after the Last
Plague empties in the air and the voice comes
out of the Temple, from the Throne, saying: "It is Done"; The End has Come. Rev.16:17.
Shortly thereafter the Temple opens for the TESTIMONY of Rev.7:9-17, then for the TRIBUNAL of Seal 7 (Rev.8:1-5) and finally for TRIUMPH
of the 7th TRumpet at Rev.11:15-19.
Only then does the Angel announce that "God's
wrath has come and the appointed time" to:
1. Judge the dead [requires the resurrection]
2. Reward the saints [requires the rapture]
3. Destroy the wicked [requires armies to be
gathered to Armageddon] . . . the very context
in which God decrees the End has Come and Jesus
says: "Behold I come as a thief; blessed is he
who keeps his garments lest he be seen naked"!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
baptistwarrior
New Member
Mel,
I am well pleased with your outline. It seems you have deeply studied the end time events. Who is Gegonan? Can you define who He is?
God Bless,
baptistwarrior
I am well pleased with your outline. It seems you have deeply studied the end time events. Who is Gegonan? Can you define who He is?
God Bless,
baptistwarrior
Mel Miller
New Member
Welcome Brother Brant,
You have just joined a lively group of Saints
who love one another and are seeking to learn
from each other. I see that you express the
same mind in asking the meaning of "gegonan".
You have read the entire 50-Point Outline of
my Order of Events in asking this question. I
made reference to this word at the end for its use in Revelation as one of only two perfect participles of "become", ginomai, Strongs #1096, 3rd person plural in Rev.21:6 where it embodies the decree for "the new heaven and earth".
Gegonan reveals the End of all things had come.
God creates a new heaven and earth. Rev.21:1-6.
Gegonen reveals God's patience is exhausted and His wrath "has come". But there are 60 verses in 6 chapters of Revelation to be fulfilled before God's anger reaches its fullest and "mixes full strength, undiluted, in the cup of wrath" as of Trump #7. Rev.14:10; Rev.11:18; Rev.16:19!
The meaning can best be understood from Romans
(and 2 Pet.3:9,15) showing God's "longsuffering patience" (long-anger) reaches the point of exhaustion with the wicked. God "gave them up" in Rom.1:24,26,28 and His coming judgment is according to truth when He judges every person according to his deeds. It's more than anger. Wrath brings eternal punishment. Rom.2:4-8.
We shall be "saved from this wrath". Rom.5:9. But now look at Rom.9:22 and Rom.11:22 for the severity of His wrath toward the wicked and to Israel in contrast to His goodness toward us (and finally His mercy to all; Rom.11:32) as
the reason for His "long-anger" (patience).
The last Plague introduces the end of God's patient "long-anger" by decreeing: "It is Done" (gegonen); the "End of My patience has come"!!
It's the perfect participle (verbal adjective) that has no alternative but wrath which is inescapable. The warnings of imminent wrath begin with Seal Six while the 7th Plague remains suspended in the air (during the Outer Path
Events of Rev.14:1-Rev.15:5) and then the Middle Path events of the Three-Act Temple Drama.
Only then does the 7th Trumpet angel announce:
"God's wrath has come"! The 7th Plague implodes a Cup of anger-induced-wrath. Rev.16:18-21.
No action occurs in the Temple in heaven until God's anger reaches the point of exhaustion as
stated in "The New Jerusalem Bible". Rev.15:1.
The use of the aorist tense, indicative mood
(done deal), for the Plagues having "finished God's anger" has been lost by translating the word "thumos" as "wrath" instead of "anger".
The difference between Anger and Wrath is that
God's anger allows the wicked to live until His patience is exhausted by the Plagues which again
reveal His deeds are holy and true. Rev.15:4. The Plagues show the wicked refuse to "repent" despite their severity which falls short of God's wrath!! Rev.16:9-11.
Thank you my new friend. You are perceptive!!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
You have just joined a lively group of Saints
who love one another and are seeking to learn
from each other. I see that you express the
same mind in asking the meaning of "gegonan".
You have read the entire 50-Point Outline of
my Order of Events in asking this question. I
made reference to this word at the end for its use in Revelation as one of only two perfect participles of "become", ginomai, Strongs #1096, 3rd person plural in Rev.21:6 where it embodies the decree for "the new heaven and earth".
Gegonan reveals the End of all things had come.
God creates a new heaven and earth. Rev.21:1-6.
Gegonen reveals God's patience is exhausted and His wrath "has come". But there are 60 verses in 6 chapters of Revelation to be fulfilled before God's anger reaches its fullest and "mixes full strength, undiluted, in the cup of wrath" as of Trump #7. Rev.14:10; Rev.11:18; Rev.16:19!
The meaning can best be understood from Romans
(and 2 Pet.3:9,15) showing God's "longsuffering patience" (long-anger) reaches the point of exhaustion with the wicked. God "gave them up" in Rom.1:24,26,28 and His coming judgment is according to truth when He judges every person according to his deeds. It's more than anger. Wrath brings eternal punishment. Rom.2:4-8.
We shall be "saved from this wrath". Rom.5:9. But now look at Rom.9:22 and Rom.11:22 for the severity of His wrath toward the wicked and to Israel in contrast to His goodness toward us (and finally His mercy to all; Rom.11:32) as
the reason for His "long-anger" (patience).
The last Plague introduces the end of God's patient "long-anger" by decreeing: "It is Done" (gegonen); the "End of My patience has come"!!
It's the perfect participle (verbal adjective) that has no alternative but wrath which is inescapable. The warnings of imminent wrath begin with Seal Six while the 7th Plague remains suspended in the air (during the Outer Path
Events of Rev.14:1-Rev.15:5) and then the Middle Path events of the Three-Act Temple Drama.
Only then does the 7th Trumpet angel announce:
"God's wrath has come"! The 7th Plague implodes a Cup of anger-induced-wrath. Rev.16:18-21.
No action occurs in the Temple in heaven until God's anger reaches the point of exhaustion as
stated in "The New Jerusalem Bible". Rev.15:1.
The use of the aorist tense, indicative mood
(done deal), for the Plagues having "finished God's anger" has been lost by translating the word "thumos" as "wrath" instead of "anger".
The difference between Anger and Wrath is that
God's anger allows the wicked to live until His patience is exhausted by the Plagues which again
reveal His deeds are holy and true. Rev.15:4. The Plagues show the wicked refuse to "repent" despite their severity which falls short of God's wrath!! Rev.16:9-11.
Thank you my new friend. You are perceptive!!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
Friends,
This thread may be about to close from lack of
response. In 2006 I hope further confirmation
of my first two of 50 Points will be realized:
______________________________________________
1. Seal One being fulfilled - Victory/struggle.
2. Leads to global rule of Babylon the Great.
______________________________________________
I believe Babylon the Great (Rome) will "rule
the kings of earth" before we may even know
the identity of the Antichrist!!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
This thread may be about to close from lack of
response. In 2006 I hope further confirmation
of my first two of 50 Points will be realized:
______________________________________________
1. Seal One being fulfilled - Victory/struggle.
2. Leads to global rule of Babylon the Great.
______________________________________________
I believe Babylon the Great (Rome) will "rule
the kings of earth" before we may even know
the identity of the Antichrist!!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
Friends,
Since December 31 . . .
Only four persons have responded to My Order of
Events for the Pre-Endtime, Endtime and Lastday.
I wonder why!! It is a straight-forward outline
which anyone, even without an esoteric grasp of
Scripture, should be able to follow.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Since December 31 . . .
Only four persons have responded to My Order of
Events for the Pre-Endtime, Endtime and Lastday.
I wonder why!! It is a straight-forward outline
which anyone, even without an esoteric grasp of
Scripture, should be able to follow.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
This time line is interesting.
However, there are some things I know that you probably don't
know.
1. The Modern Orthodox Rabbis consider Ezekiel chapter 38
and Ezekiel chapter 39 as seperate yet unfulfilled prophecies.
2. Modern Orthodox Rabbis (not Messanic Jews) say these three
signs will happen when Messiah comes:
A. peace to Yisrael
B. the daily sacrifice will be restored
C. the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt
Of course, things work the other way around. Any one who
has a peace treaty with the Jews so they can use the DOR area
for the daily sacrifice and who have a peace treaty that
allows the rebuilding of the temple - that person will be
counted as Messiah. Remember the 'anti' in 'Antichrist' can
also mean INSTEAD OF.
3. There is no need of a Temple to be built before
the daily sacrifice is made. All that is needed is Jewish
Priests' access to the empty (well, there is a place to
wash feet there) area north of the Dome of the Rock (DOR).
This is why I consider it very likely that during the first half
of Daniel's 70th week the daily sacrifice will be made as
the temple is rebuilding (no, it does NOT need the DOR gone, both
can exist side by side if some smart person can figure out
how to talk the Musilms into letting the Jews do it.
Possibly at mid-tribulation, when the first 1260 days are gone,
the 1260 days that the two witnesses prophesy, the Antichrist will
commit the AOD = abomination of desolation, at the dedication (opening)
of the Temple.
God the Father's unique knowledge of the time of the last day.
No date is given, only an order of events.
//Your outline is interesting, but is, at best, speculative.//
I agree. However, it doesn't say WHICH date so
doesn't violate anybody/anything.
However, there are some things I know that you probably don't
know.
1. The Modern Orthodox Rabbis consider Ezekiel chapter 38
and Ezekiel chapter 39 as seperate yet unfulfilled prophecies.
2. Modern Orthodox Rabbis (not Messanic Jews) say these three
signs will happen when Messiah comes:
A. peace to Yisrael
B. the daily sacrifice will be restored
C. the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt
Of course, things work the other way around. Any one who
has a peace treaty with the Jews so they can use the DOR area
for the daily sacrifice and who have a peace treaty that
allows the rebuilding of the temple - that person will be
counted as Messiah. Remember the 'anti' in 'Antichrist' can
also mean INSTEAD OF.
3. There is no need of a Temple to be built before
the daily sacrifice is made. All that is needed is Jewish
Priests' access to the empty (well, there is a place to
wash feet there) area north of the Dome of the Rock (DOR).
This is why I consider it very likely that during the first half
of Daniel's 70th week the daily sacrifice will be made as
the temple is rebuilding (no, it does NOT need the DOR gone, both
can exist side by side if some smart person can figure out
how to talk the Musilms into letting the Jews do it.
Possibly at mid-tribulation, when the first 1260 days are gone,
the 1260 days that the two witnesses prophesy, the Antichrist will
commit the AOD = abomination of desolation, at the dedication (opening)
of the Temple.
In no way does the above outline of the last day violate
God the Father's unique knowledge of the time of the last day.
No date is given, only an order of events.
//Your outline is interesting, but is, at best, speculative.//
I agree. However, it doesn't say WHICH date so
doesn't violate anybody/anything.
Mel Miller
New Member
Ed,
Thanks for your approval.
However, you had sort of "signed off" after I
pointed out your failure to prove your Day of
the Lord is 1007 years. My comment at the end
of the outline is:
_____________________________________________
"Teaching that the Day of the Lord includes Daniel’s 70th Seven is very misleading as it requires a 1007-Year-Day of the Lord"!
_____________________________________________
Your Pre-Trib View contradicts the truth that
the "Day of the Lord is exactly 1000 years"!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
Thanks for your approval.
However, you had sort of "signed off" after I
pointed out your failure to prove your Day of
the Lord is 1007 years. My comment at the end
of the outline is:
_____________________________________________
"Teaching that the Day of the Lord includes Daniel’s 70th Seven is very misleading as it requires a 1007-Year-Day of the Lord"!
_____________________________________________
Your Pre-Trib View contradicts the truth that
the "Day of the Lord is exactly 1000 years"!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Rabbis and Judaism religion have the wrong idea about eschatology. They still have their old habits come from Pharisees.
During Christ's ministry, Pharisees demanded for the kingdom of heaven in oberservation, and they wanted their own King or Messiah to set up the kingdom and to takeover Roman Empire. Christ told them, the kingdom of heaven is not with the observation, but it is from above - Luke 17:30. Earlier, I started a topic on Acts 3:21, that I discussed about millennium issue. That verse is not talking about millennium, it is talking about fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets which were concerning on Jesus Christ as the first advent.
Also, the fact is, many rabbis are blind and heart hardened reject Jesus Christ as Messiah, and the Son of God today. They are still looking forward for their Messiah come to earth. But they didn't realized Jesus Christ, as Messiah already came to earth 2,000 years ago to set the kingdom of God/heaven and to saved the world by calvary.
I feel sorry for rabbis and Jews are still blind and lost are on the way to hell because of reject Christ as their Messiah.
Sorry, I am off the topic.
What about Romans 11:25? Many believe Jews will be saved at Christ's coming- the future final redemption or deliverance of Israel. This verse is not talking about "Jews", this verse is talking about all people of the world both Jews and include Gentiles shall be all saved will be completed as Christ builting His church(Matt. 16:18) will be done or finished.
Also, the fact is many rabbis refuse to reading New Testament talking on Jesus Christ, they still use Torah, that why they are blind.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
During Christ's ministry, Pharisees demanded for the kingdom of heaven in oberservation, and they wanted their own King or Messiah to set up the kingdom and to takeover Roman Empire. Christ told them, the kingdom of heaven is not with the observation, but it is from above - Luke 17:30. Earlier, I started a topic on Acts 3:21, that I discussed about millennium issue. That verse is not talking about millennium, it is talking about fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets which were concerning on Jesus Christ as the first advent.
Also, the fact is, many rabbis are blind and heart hardened reject Jesus Christ as Messiah, and the Son of God today. They are still looking forward for their Messiah come to earth. But they didn't realized Jesus Christ, as Messiah already came to earth 2,000 years ago to set the kingdom of God/heaven and to saved the world by calvary.
I feel sorry for rabbis and Jews are still blind and lost are on the way to hell because of reject Christ as their Messiah.
Sorry, I am off the topic.
What about Romans 11:25? Many believe Jews will be saved at Christ's coming- the future final redemption or deliverance of Israel. This verse is not talking about "Jews", this verse is talking about all people of the world both Jews and include Gentiles shall be all saved will be completed as Christ builting His church(Matt. 16:18) will be done or finished.
Also, the fact is many rabbis refuse to reading New Testament talking on Jesus Christ, they still use Torah, that why they are blind.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Mel Miller
New Member
DeafPostTrib,
I notice that you make statements without giving
any Scriptural support. May I ask: "What is your support for the following proclamation"?
________________________________________________
"This verse (Rom.11:25) is talking about all people of the world both Jews and include Gentiles shall be all saved will be completed as Christ builting His church (Matt. 16:18) will be done or finished".
________________________________________________
In answering, please explain why Paul keeps
switching between Israel and the Gentiles!!!
When does Paul say Israel (Jacob) will be
"grafted back" into their own Olive Tree?
Under what conditions will God show "mercy to ALL" after He concludes that both Jacob and
the Gentiles have been "disobedient?"
Please read the text carefully in Rom.11; for
your answer will reveal your respect for God's
plans for the future of the "whole house of Israel and Judah" in distinct contrast to that of His plans for the Body of Christ.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
I notice that you make statements without giving
any Scriptural support. May I ask: "What is your support for the following proclamation"?
________________________________________________
"This verse (Rom.11:25) is talking about all people of the world both Jews and include Gentiles shall be all saved will be completed as Christ builting His church (Matt. 16:18) will be done or finished".
________________________________________________
In answering, please explain why Paul keeps
switching between Israel and the Gentiles!!!
When does Paul say Israel (Jacob) will be
"grafted back" into their own Olive Tree?
Under what conditions will God show "mercy to ALL" after He concludes that both Jacob and
the Gentiles have been "disobedient?"
Please read the text carefully in Rom.11; for
your answer will reveal your respect for God's
plans for the future of the "whole house of Israel and Judah" in distinct contrast to that of His plans for the Body of Christ.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I have been reading through whole Romans chapter 11 many times. I understand what it is talking all about. That chapter talks about the tree. God doesn't forsake his people(Jews).
Believing Jews are remain stay in the same tree. God removed Jews from the tree, because of their UNBELIEF.
God added Gentiles unto the tree, as they believing in Jesus Christ. Gentiles join with believing Jews on the same tree which is through Jesus Christ- the same boat as one group.
God can graft Jews back to tree again-UNLESS, if they repent and believe in Christ again. Not only Jews, also, Gentiles could be removed from the tree according to John chapter 15.
My point is, there is none passage find anywhere in the Bible saying that there shall be a literal one thousand years beyond Christ's coming.
Premills believe there will be mixed of righteous and unrighteous living together on 'new earth' of Isaiah chapter 65.
But, there is none passage find anywhere in Bible saying that unrighteous shall be alive and remain to enter the kingdom beyond Christ's coming.
Christ tells when He will come, His coming shall be like as thief in the night, for the purpose to take them all away same as what God did to them in the flood. There shall be no unrightous remain left beyind the judgement day.
By the way, Romans chapter 11 says nothing anything that Israel shall be become 'nation' again at Christ's coming. That chapter 11 focus on individual for their salvation.
'Israel' means God's people whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ, they are belong to God's. Understand?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Believing Jews are remain stay in the same tree. God removed Jews from the tree, because of their UNBELIEF.
God added Gentiles unto the tree, as they believing in Jesus Christ. Gentiles join with believing Jews on the same tree which is through Jesus Christ- the same boat as one group.
God can graft Jews back to tree again-UNLESS, if they repent and believe in Christ again. Not only Jews, also, Gentiles could be removed from the tree according to John chapter 15.
My point is, there is none passage find anywhere in the Bible saying that there shall be a literal one thousand years beyond Christ's coming.
Premills believe there will be mixed of righteous and unrighteous living together on 'new earth' of Isaiah chapter 65.
But, there is none passage find anywhere in Bible saying that unrighteous shall be alive and remain to enter the kingdom beyond Christ's coming.
Christ tells when He will come, His coming shall be like as thief in the night, for the purpose to take them all away same as what God did to them in the flood. There shall be no unrightous remain left beyind the judgement day.
By the way, Romans chapter 11 says nothing anything that Israel shall be become 'nation' again at Christ's coming. That chapter 11 focus on individual for their salvation.
'Israel' means God's people whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ, they are belong to God's. Understand?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Mel Miller
New Member
DeafPosttrib,
I feared you would not follow my suggestion to
read Rom.11 because you answered in 12 minutes!
I made one request and you failed to mention it:
_______________________________________________
"In answering, please explain why Paul keeps
switching between Israel and the Gentiles"!!
_______________________________________________
I asked 2 questions. You addressed neither ONE:
1. "When does Paul say Israel (Jacob) will be
`grafted back' into their own Olive Tree"?
2. "Under what conditions will God show `Mercy to ALL' after He concludes that both Jacob and
the Gentiles have been `disobedient'"?
________________________________________________
My friend, I think you need to re-read Rom.11
again and especially note what Paul says in
verses 30-33. Respectfully, you surely could
NOT fully answer my questions in 12 minutes!!
I feared you would not follow my suggestion to
read Rom.11 because you answered in 12 minutes!
I made one request and you failed to mention it:
_______________________________________________
"In answering, please explain why Paul keeps
switching between Israel and the Gentiles"!!
_______________________________________________
I asked 2 questions. You addressed neither ONE:
1. "When does Paul say Israel (Jacob) will be
`grafted back' into their own Olive Tree"?
2. "Under what conditions will God show `Mercy to ALL' after He concludes that both Jacob and
the Gentiles have been `disobedient'"?
________________________________________________
My friend, I think you need to re-read Rom.11
again and especially note what Paul says in
verses 30-33. Respectfully, you surely could
NOT fully answer my questions in 12 minutes!!
baptistwarrior
New Member
does line 20 in your outline correspond to Rev 16:19?
Mel Miller
New Member
baptistwarrior,
Here is line #20:
20. Wicked reaped to Winepress of great anger".
I believe Rev.16:19 and Rev.19:15 are literally
fulfilled on the 12-Hour Day of Christ's coming.
The reaping of Rev.14:14-20 is *symbolic*; but
it, and everything after line #16, occurs on the same 12-Hour Day that Christ is revealed.
The reaping of the "grain of earth" by the Son
of Man in verse 16 anticipates fulfillment of Rev.16:18-21 as well as that of Rev.19:15-21.
The 3 angels symbolically "collect" a specific
part of what Christ reaps, i.e., just the "fruit of the vine". Rev.14:17-19. So they "collect"
what Christ is about to "tread" in Rev.19.
Verse 20 is obviously symbolic because, while
it occurs on the same Christ comes, lines #21
to 32 must occur between the reaping of line
20 and the descent of Christ to destroy all
the wicked . . . on that same 12-Hour Day!!
Here is line #20:
20. Wicked reaped to Winepress of great anger".
I believe Rev.16:19 and Rev.19:15 are literally
fulfilled on the 12-Hour Day of Christ's coming.
The reaping of Rev.14:14-20 is *symbolic*; but
it, and everything after line #16, occurs on the same 12-Hour Day that Christ is revealed.
The reaping of the "grain of earth" by the Son
of Man in verse 16 anticipates fulfillment of Rev.16:18-21 as well as that of Rev.19:15-21.
The 3 angels symbolically "collect" a specific
part of what Christ reaps, i.e., just the "fruit of the vine". Rev.14:17-19. So they "collect"
what Christ is about to "tread" in Rev.19.
Verse 20 is obviously symbolic because, while
it occurs on the same Christ comes, lines #21
to 32 must occur between the reaping of line
20 and the descent of Christ to destroy all
the wicked . . . on that same 12-Hour Day!!
Mel Miller
New Member
baptistwarrior,
Continuing my last post on Line #20:
Please go to Centerpiece at www.lastday.net
and notice that I have a different breakdown
of Lastday events. Line #20 there points to
the fulfillment of Line #7. Line #7 is the
symbolic reaping by the Son of Man and the collecting by the angels on the same day.
Line #20 in the Centerpiece is the literal
fulfillment of Line #20 in My Outline. I
put 14:20 in line #20 because that verse
is anticipatory of what is about to occur
as soon as Christ descends to "tread the
same winepress of ANGER AND WRATH" that
John sees as only the "winepress of God's
great ANGER in Rev.14:19-20.
The Temple Drama of the Middle Concentric
Path, Lines 11-15 on the Centerpiece is
the same as Lines 22-27 in My Outline.
It is better to stick to the Centerpiece
for the actual scriptural order of 100
verses to be fulfilled on the 12-Hour
Lastday.
If this is confusing, please follow up. You
are asking the right questions! My Outline is
a more general review of the order of events for the Endtime and Lastday whereas the Centerpiece gives the Scriptural order just for the events taking place on the last 12-Hour Day.
Mel
Continuing my last post on Line #20:
Please go to Centerpiece at www.lastday.net
and notice that I have a different breakdown
of Lastday events. Line #20 there points to
the fulfillment of Line #7. Line #7 is the
symbolic reaping by the Son of Man and the collecting by the angels on the same day.
Line #20 in the Centerpiece is the literal
fulfillment of Line #20 in My Outline. I
put 14:20 in line #20 because that verse
is anticipatory of what is about to occur
as soon as Christ descends to "tread the
same winepress of ANGER AND WRATH" that
John sees as only the "winepress of God's
great ANGER in Rev.14:19-20.
The Temple Drama of the Middle Concentric
Path, Lines 11-15 on the Centerpiece is
the same as Lines 22-27 in My Outline.
It is better to stick to the Centerpiece
for the actual scriptural order of 100
verses to be fulfilled on the 12-Hour
Lastday.
If this is confusing, please follow up. You
are asking the right questions! My Outline is
a more general review of the order of events for the Endtime and Lastday whereas the Centerpiece gives the Scriptural order just for the events taking place on the last 12-Hour Day.
Mel
Mel Miller
New Member
DeafPosttrib,
Quote:
"Romans chapter 11 says nothing anything that Israel shall be become 'nation' again at Christ's coming. That chapter 11 focus on individual for their salvation".
____________________________________________
If your statement is true, then what is the
purpose of God's Covenant with Jacob to "remove the blindness of Israel, forgive their sins, regraft Jacob into her own Olive Tree and then show mercy to all" after He has "concluded both Jews and Gentiles in a state of disobedience"??
There is no possible way, IMO, to support your
teaching that God will "no longer remember the sins" of the "individual" Church member, if
that is your point of contention, when Messiah comes out of Zion. The sins of Believers have been removed since the Cross; but NOT the sins of Jacob! God's judgment on Israel is still in
effect until they "mourn and beg for mercy"
when Christ appears with all the Saints.
When God forgives the sins of both houses of
Israel and Judah, because of His Covenant with David, they will become the channel of blessing
to all nations so that God might "show mercy to ALL. The peoples of the nations will know God, from the least to the greatest. God's ways", my friend, "are past finding out". Rom.11:30-33.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
Quote:
"Romans chapter 11 says nothing anything that Israel shall be become 'nation' again at Christ's coming. That chapter 11 focus on individual for their salvation".
____________________________________________
If your statement is true, then what is the
purpose of God's Covenant with Jacob to "remove the blindness of Israel, forgive their sins, regraft Jacob into her own Olive Tree and then show mercy to all" after He has "concluded both Jews and Gentiles in a state of disobedience"??
There is no possible way, IMO, to support your
teaching that God will "no longer remember the sins" of the "individual" Church member, if
that is your point of contention, when Messiah comes out of Zion. The sins of Believers have been removed since the Cross; but NOT the sins of Jacob! God's judgment on Israel is still in
effect until they "mourn and beg for mercy"
when Christ appears with all the Saints.
When God forgives the sins of both houses of
Israel and Judah, because of His Covenant with David, they will become the channel of blessing
to all nations so that God might "show mercy to ALL. The peoples of the nations will know God, from the least to the greatest. God's ways", my friend, "are past finding out". Rom.11:30-33.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net