My still unanswered question about music.....

Ayaw lang kagool, sir, kay og aduna kay mga higala
nga Sugbuanon, pakigsolti lang nila, kay mabaed na sad ang emong binisaya.
Translation: Don't worry, sir, because if you have friends who are Cebuanos you can hone up on your Cebuano again.
I was born and raised in Manila, the capital region, studied there, spent most of my married life in Samar and Cebu which is south, speak, write, read three different dialects beside my own, Tagalog, which is the "national" language.
I know Cotabato well, Davao the City not so well, but you can let me loose in the mountains and jungles of Davao the Province blindfolded and I'm sure to fall off waterfalls.
Cheers, Mr. Sularis.

 

I also am Primitive Baptist and we do have an organ in our church!... The mouth organ!... I've been using mine for 40 years... The reason Primitive Baptist don't use musical instruments in the church is because its unscriptural. I'm sure the vast multitude in heaven will need no instrumental accompaniment. Why should we use it here when we won't need it there?... Since we will all sing acappella... Us Primitive Baptist are getting an early start!... Pinoybaptist!... Number 154!... Brother Glen

 

Molly said:

No, it may not be the dancing of today, but it sure goes to disprove the notion that "spiritual music" the God accepts has to be a stiff plain "traditional" style from the medieval age.

A harmonica? Shame for sneaking that into your church!

It's funny how people argue that this is the New Testament, and "we can't mix old and new", yet create new legalistic type rules, based purely on the "silence" of the New Testament. The NT gives us liberty with regard to things like this, just as it did with the Sabbaths, meats, etc.)

 

Actually Molly, dancing (leaping) is more of what you'll see in Christian concerts now days...kids jumping up and down.

karen

 

Jumping or "moshing"?

Click here and scroll to first pic.

 

Jumping..last concert I was at Audio A. which was just last year there was no moshing..just a lot of jumping up and down.

karen

 

I'll admit that I am coming from a state of ignorance concerning Primitive Baptist beliefs, but this statement leaves me a bit confused. I know of no scripture that condemns the use of musical instruments but to the contrary Psalms 150 jumps immediately to mind.

Psalm 150:3-5 (NKJV)
Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the lute and harp! Praise him with the timbrel and dance; praise him with stringed instruments and flutes! Praise him upon the loud cymbals; praise him upon the high sounding cymbals!

I am just asking to be educated a little bit. I tried the pb.org FAQ and it still left me confused as to why musical instruments are separated out.

 

They argue that that's the Old Testament only, and anything not expressly commanded in the New Testament is "forbidden" to us. Of course, this begs the question whether they use anything that was not around in the first century (church board, church building, salaried leaders, hymns that are not Psalms, etc)

 

The idea of getting rid of "old" hymns in chuch because thy're not condusive to contemporary worship is the biggest load of bantha poodoo I've ever heard. If congregation likes new stuff instead of old stuff, that's one thing. But if the congregation likes old stuff instead of old stuff, let them have what they want.

If I'm ever told that we can't sing "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know" because it's not contemporary is the day pack my bags and find a church that lets me worship in a manner that lets me worship without politically correct (or in this case, worshipfully correct) overtones.

 

Lets try this one:

My Jesus, My Savior, Lord there is none like you
all of my days I want to praise the wonders of your mighty love.

My comfort, my shelter tower of refuge and strength, let every breath, all that I am never cease to worship you.

Shout to the Lord all ye earth let us sing. Power and majesty, praise to the king. Mountians bow down and the seas will roar at the sound of your name.

I sing for joy at the work of your hands forever I'll love you forever I'll stand, nothing compares to the promise I have in you.

Maybe this one:

When I think about all you've done for me. When I see your wondrous ways. I can't help but sing your highest praise, my God you're and awesome God.

Oh my God, you're an awesome God. Great is thy faithfulness, mighty are your ways. Oh my God you're an awesome God and you will reign forever Lord in my life, you're an awesome God.

Or maybe this:

I know he rescued my soul, his blood has covered my sin, I believe. I believe.

My shame he's taken away, my pain is healed in his name, I believe. I believe. I'll raise a banner. My God has conquered the grave. My redeemer lives.

Or this one

I'm trading my sorrows, I'm trading my pain. I'm laying it down for the joy of the Lord. I'm trading my sickness, I'm trading my shame, I'm laying down for the joy of the Lord.

I am pressed but not crushed, persecuted but not abandoned, struck down but not destroyed. I'm am blessed beyond the curse for his promise will endure, His joy's gonna be my strength. Though sorrow may last for a night His Joy comes in the morning.

Somehow these words are pretty profound (maybe because they are mostly scripture).

How about this one.

God's been good to me, oh God's always been good.

Or maybe this one.

Its all about you Jesus. And all this is for you. For your glory and your praise, its not about me, as if you should do things my way, for you alone are God and I surrender.

Folks this is another one that falls under "all things are acceptable, but not all things are profitable." Music is not a doctrine of the faith and dissention regarding the music falls under "strife and division"

Hymn #188 (1956 Baptist Hymnal) holds the same profoud message as "I know he rescued my soul, His blood has covered my sin".

Folks, style is not the issue. The issue is if it glorifies God and brings others to Him criticism is inappropriate.

I remember when I was a kid Resurrection Band took alot of heat from the mainstream faith, but the reality is that their concerts resulted in more conversions than the Average Baptist Church sees in decades.

 

I have to completely disagree with you here, sir. No disrespect, but who are you (or rather who is anyone other than God) to judge someone because of the way he chooses to worship?

Let's look at this hypothetical situation: So, a man is given a talent to write poetry in homage to the Lord. Hence, God has bestowed upon him this flair for the written word so he chooses to use it to praise Him and speak out to others in testimony to the Lord's amazing love, power, etc. So far I think you'll agree this is a good thing. Now, let's say the style of this man's poetry is spoken word. Let's go a step further - let's say it's put to a beat and begins to sound like rap. Is that poetry any less of a good thing just because it's more musical?

The way I see it (as I said in another thread) is that the Lord made us all different giving us special abilities and talents. I think it's our duty to use those talents to praise him as best we can, regardless of whether the talent is singing a classic hymn, kicking a freestyle rap, or playing in a symphony performance of the Messiah! So long as the Word gets out, the inspiration behind the music is the right one, and the lyrics are given in a godly manner how could it be wrong?

Am I any less of a Christian because I have more than one earring in my ear? Is Kirk Franklin any less powerful with the message he delivers if he works some rap into one of his gospel pieces? Is Christian music set to salsa in a Latin community any less "holy" than traditional hymns (which as someone else wisely said were "new" once as well)?

I'm not saying we throw out everything old and only listen to Christian Rock and Gospel Rap, but think about opening your mind and heart to what these (mostly young) people are saying through their music! These are people who are strong in the spirit, want to share it, and want to proclaim it to the world! Therefore instead of discouraging them, applaud them... they just might help lead a few more to the right path and out of the hands of evil one below!

- meli - :::sorry if I got a little wordy... this is a HUGE issue with me:::

P.S. If you want to see some results from the music, feel free to drop me an e-mail... I'll tell you all about our youth ministry and how important this music is to some of our youngsters and teens. I'll also tell you how songs by artists like Out of Eden, Rebecca St. James, and P.O.D. have gotten me and others through some pretty rough days. Better yet, some out on June 29th to The Call in NYC and see the music unite thousands of young Christians in a day of praise, prayer, and fasting.

 

Here's an article about one of my favorite Christian groups... a rap duo called GRITS - Grammatical Revolution In The Spirit.

Enjoy!

Thoughts?

- meli -

 

bump

 

Original question: Why does a church *change* a style in the first place? What are the reason and benefits from it? Is it simply a reflection from our culture? Or does it go deeper?

Answer:

"When the church stops changing it dies. The very definition of impermanence is the definition of life."

Adopted from Len Sweet

 

Molly, this is just MY opinion...

You asked:

I don't think it has a biblical reason but is caving in to the 'world' and trying to 'fit in' with the world. Also, to attract a younger crowd maybe?

Just the opinion of an old time religion girl who prefers the old hymns! I do like some of the new praise songs but this bang bang strum strum loud stuff we have some Sunday's doesn't appeal to me at all! Certainly does NOT put me in a worship frame of mind!

Again, an old woman gives ONLY her opinion with NO scripture to back it up so don't stone me! LOL
Diane

 

Perhaps it may be better (ans quite valid) to say that they are not caving in to the world or trying to fit in with the world, but they are trying to reach the world for Jesus Christ. The point that is so often missed in this debate is that young people out there in the world do not like hymns. They have myriads of reasons why. We can reach that population using music, although I do not think we should water down the lyrics one iota.

 

That's a good point Scott BUT in a Sunday morning church service.... We have just under 1,000 members. 976 to be exact. There are two rows of college and high school kids up front. Now last Sunday was Graduate Recognition Sunday so I can sort of understand why everything was geared toward the youth but the music was all VERY modern and loud and the most 'religious' song was about some girl being told to go ahead and dance even if she had two left feet.

Let's say that 90% of the people in attendance really dislikes the music. BUT... our Sunday night services are ALWAYS youth oriented with bands, louder music, youth drama, etc. and the youth have a Bible Study on Wednesday night with 60-70 in attendance. Should we incorporate a large amount of the modern music into the Sunday morning service if we are providing alternative times for the younger set?

That's an honest question and not trying to bait you. I really am not sure how this should be handled and am wanting the thoughts from someone younger than me (52). I'm all for reaching people for Jesus whatever it takes!

Diane

 

We have been having at our church a long discussion about whether to have two services - one traditional and one contemporary. Our staff has a few people who would like to see that. Surprisingly enough to those who know me (and especially the staff), I am against it. To me, it is like we are two separate churches. Personally, I don't think that separating the "young people" from the "old people" (which is what the rhetoric is at our staff meetings sometimes) is a good idea. I think there are so many things each group can learn from the other.

And we are remaining a mostly traditional service, although we do sing some praise choruses now and then. We are probably 75% hymns and anthems and 25% praise and worship during Sunday mornings. On Sunday nights, the ratio goes to about 50%-50%.

Speaking for the group that I have the creative control over - that is, around 150 middle schoolers - here is how I handle this. The majority of our visitors come on Wednesday night. It is a comfortable atmosphere, with our students who do a great job at welcoming visitors and adults who do not act like teenagers (which is a bad idea for anyone in youth ministry), but who know how to listen and be respected authority figures. We probably average around 5-10 first-time visitors and 15 who haven't joined yet for each Wednesday night service, which is 2 hours long. Part of the service (about 45 minutes) is split into small groups.

We worship using mostly praise and worship songs, although we generally add one or two hymns in the mix, albeit to acoustic guitar. The visitors tend to not sing as loud during those songs, but the more they come, the more they learn to open up and sing. It is a lot easier for them to sing to praise and worship songs.

The response to our Sunday morning services are generally positive, although the majority of them don't like the organ so loud. They sing a lot louder during our praise and worship songs, such as "Above All," and "Come, Now is the Time to Worship." (I get to watch them because I have them sit in the front of the sanctuary and I sing up front as part of the worship team.) Surprising to me is how much they generally love the choir anthems, which are mostly traditional.

My own feeling is that the students need to be exposed to such wonderful music as hymns, although they also need a chance to experience music in their own "language." At the same time, I think it is good every now and then for the older generation to see what the younger generation is up to, although not very often - perhaps once every four or five months.

And that's just my opinion!

 

If you applaud the performer and the performance
are you giving glory to GOD or man?

 

Both. Sometimes the message of the music is what is touching and sometimes it's the voice, more than not it's the message.