my testimony

[dispen4ever]

So every second of your loved one's torment WILL BE witnessed BY YOU!

I saw where Amy posted that as a quote from someone else. I knew it had to come from bobryan or claudia-t, so I checked to see which one. Now I know even more why I have both of them blocked.

:flower:

 

[Claudia_T]

oh well.... Im blocked. I guess thats better than closing your ears and covering your eyes.

 

[dispen4ever]

The idea that God lets any creature suffer endlessly has caused me more suffering than all other problems of my life combined.

I thought that with that beginning, someone had come along who would be helpful to xdx's understanding, but alas, the rest of his post left a lot to be desired.

:sleeping_2:

 

[webdog]

Exactly. If you suffer knowing loved ones could possible sufferer endlessly...do something about it instead of just not believing it. Truth is truth whether we want to believe it or not. Truth is there will be loved ones who will suffer endlessly and permanently in Hell, but we can pray for them and share the Gospel with them.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Well we can't stop talking about it, regardless of what one believes about it, becuase Scripture talks about it. You can't ignore one part of the Bible in favor of another part. You have to take the whole.

Really? Interesting. How many hands, and how many eyes do you have. Do you eat shrimp? Wear clothes of two differing materials?

On on the whole God's Justice and Holiness and Righteousness is talked about and so is His Love. However you can't dismiss His Justice, Holiness and Righteousness in favor of His Love, because you don't like the other three.

I hear a whole lot about who God hates and who God likes in these here parts. You want to know what Scripture says God hates? Injustice - almost as much, if not more, than God hates idolatry. Yet I'm wondering how many threads have been started in this section on the Christian response to the genocide in Darfur. How many threads have been started to discuss a Christian response to AIDS in third-world countries. How many threads have been started to discuss the one million children who disappear every year into sexual slavery worldwide.

No, w'd rather think about "justice" as it applies to people different than us. We'd rather argue about when to go to church, we'd rather elevate the Bible to an object of worship.

Justice? Please.

God is Who He is and we must accept it all. And we must talk about it all. God does love the unsaved sinner, but the reality is if he/she does not believe in the subtitionary death and shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Lamb, that died and shed His blood on their behalf a sinner, they are going to the lake of fire. That's just the reality of the situation. Why sugar coat it?

Sugar coat what?

Most of Jesus' warnings were directed at the believers of that day. He treated the "unbelievers" - even the "apostate" Samaritans - with love. Paul, too, saved his severest warnings for believers.

The fact is and always been that you do not know who is or is not going to Hell. Niether do I. Why not talk about what happens when Jesus saves, rather than continually crowing about Hell?

 

[webdog]

The fact is and always been that you do not know who is or is not going to Hell. Niether do I. Why not talk about what happens when Jesus saves, rather than continually crowing about Hell?

Sounds like a quote from Joel Osteen...without the Jesus saves part.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

This is hilarious. A guy posts his beliefs concerning whter or not Hell exists, and you guys end up arguing over whose concept of eternal damnation is most correct.

Me, I wish we could remove all discussion of Hell from our conversations with nonbelievers -- or those who dare to believe different things about the same faith. "You're going to Hell" is a terrible way to demonstrate the saving love of Jesus Christ. It isn't love at all, in fact: it's a cry of triumph.

Maybe the unsaved burn in Hell for eternity, maybe they burn then... umm, whatever it is the SDAs say happens after that, I can't figure it out, or maybe rogertutt is right. Or maybe none of us are right.

I double-dog-dare you to stop talking about what's going to happen to people you don't like when they die, and start acting like you love the people Jesus loves.

1. "You're going to Hell" without Christ is the truth, not an arrogant cry of triumph.

2. I will not candy coat the truth to make the weaklings of the POMO generation feel better about themselves. I, therefore, decline you foolish challenge.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

Sounds like a quote from Joel Osteen...without the Jesus saves part.

Oh, well, that makes my whole post irrelevant, doesn't it?

 

[webdog]

Just the part about not talking about hell.

 

[J. Jump]

Really?

Yes really!

How many hands, and how many eyes do you have.

Thankfully my mom didn't smoke, and she didn't leave by any radio active waste dump or anything like that so God gave me two hands and two eyes. Although the genetics that I got visual weren't very good as I have to were some pretty powerful glasses or contacts What about you?

Do you eat shrimp?

Sometimes. Although I think I would be a lot healthier if I would avoid the things that are discussed there.

Wear clothes of two differing materials?

Yes I do. Does that prove your point? Can you show me where we are forbidden to wear such clothing today? Just because something isn't directed specifically at me doesn't mean that I don't have something to learn from it.

I don't sacrifice animals either, because Jesus was THE Sacrifice once and for all, but that doesn't mean I ignore that portion of Scripture just because I am not required to sacrifice. There is a lot that can be gleaned from the study of the sacrificial system that was in place.

I don't worship in the tabernacle or in the temple either, but there is still A LOT that can be gleaned from the study of those two.

I hear a whole lot about who God hates and who God likes in these here parts. You want to know what Scripture says God hates? Injustice - almost as much, if not more, than God hates idolatry. Yet I'm wondering how many threads have been started in this section on the Christian response to the genocide in Darfur. How many threads have been started to discuss a Christian response to AIDS in third-world countries. How many threads have been started to discuss the one million children who disappear every year into sexual slavery worldwide.

No, w'd rather think about "justice" as it applies to people different than us. We'd rather argue about when to go to church, we'd rather elevate the Bible to an object of worship.

Justice? Please.

Pretty typical response. Christians don't love the people in Darfur, Chrsitians don't love AIDS patients. What a load of nonesense. Just because someone doesn't start a thread about either of these two subjects doesn't mean anything.

Why is it that folks like you just pick on Darfur and AIDS and sex slaves? Why not pick the suffering Christians in China or India or other parts of Africa? Why not the homeless situation in America? Why not some other disease that is just as bad as AIDS?

It's just a strawman to take focus off the real issue. The real issue is that people are going to go to hell. The good news is God did value them enough to send His one and only begotten Son to die and shed His blood on their behalf. However if they don't believe that they are still going to hell. That's just the simple fact of the matter.

Sugar coat what?

Why sugar coat where people are headed if they do not believe?

Most of Jesus' warnings were directed at the believers of that day.

I happen to agree with you, but that doesn't prove your point.

He treated the "unbelievers" - even the "apostate" Samaritans - with love.

Who has said anything about acting out of anything other than love? Why is sharing the Truth about hell unloving? It's the Truth. The Truth is not always pleasant, but that doesn't mean it is unloving.

Paul, too, saved his severest warnings for believers.

Again AMEN! I wish more "saved" folks could understand this.

The fact is and always been that you do not know who is or is not going to Hell.

That is not a fact at all. The fact is that those that don't believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on their behalf a sinner are going to spend an eternity in the lake of fire.

Why not talk about what happens when Jesus saves, rather than continually crowing about Hell?

Again just because someone tells someone the Truth doesn't mean they are crowing about Hell. Now granted there probably are some street preachers that are crowing about Hell. There are probably some pulpit preachers that are crowing about Hell. But it is far from the majority.

Now with that being said when you talk to someone about Christ and you share with them the good news that He saves do you just leave them with the idea that they will be okay anyway even if they didn't believe?

Oh it's okay that you don't want to trust in Jesus' finished works, you'll be okay in the end? Is that what you do?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Sharing Jesus Christ's love with others isn't selling fire insurance.

 

[Helen]

Sharing Jesus Christ's love with others isn't selling fire insurance.

Amen, and thank you.

 

[J. Jump]

Sharing Jesus Christ's love with others isn't selling fire insurance.

Who on this post said it was? Now with that being said I know there are many that offer it that way, and you are correct that the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not to be sold as fire insurance. It isn't intended to be sold as anything.

It is a gift and there are consequences if you receive the gift and there are consequences if you don't receive the gift.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Sharing Jesus Christ's love with others isn't selling fire insurance.

This is true. It has, however, nothing to do with the subject and doesn't change the truth that all who die without Christ are going to Hell.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe the unsaved burn in Hell for eternity, maybe they burn then... umm, whatever it is the SDAs say happens after that, I can't figure it out,

We say "BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED in fiery hell" as we read in Matt 10:22 -- but before being totally and completely destroyed. the wicked "suffer the torment of fire and brimstone" - the second death, the lake of fire "IN the presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy ones" Rev 14:10. Which will be a horrible ordeal for the saved who witness the entire consequence of sin and rebellion as it is executed "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10.

Rev 21 goes to a point AFTER the lake of fire event in Rev 20 and says that THEN at THAT time - every tear will be wiped away.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sharing Jesus Christ's love with others isn't selling fire insurance.

"God so loved the Word that He gave His only begotten Son - that whosoever Believeth on Him - might not PERISH"

the message of salvation is only complete when we include "saved from what".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I saw where Amy posted that as a quote from someone else. I knew it had to come from bobryan or claudia-t, so I checked to see which one. Now I know even more why I have both of them blocked.

:flower:

I have to admit - it is kinda fun watching you groping your way through the threads - trying to guess what is going on.

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

We say "BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED in fiery hell" as we read in Matt 10:22 -- but before being totally and completely destroyed. the wicked "suffer the torment of fire and brimstone" - the second death, the lake of fire "IN the presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy ones" Rev 14:10. Which will be a horrible ordeal for the saved who witness the entire consequence of sin and rebellion as it is executed "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10.

Rev 21 goes to a point AFTER the lake of fire event in Rev 20 and says that THEN at THAT time - every tear will be wiped away.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob,

I have never heard that before, about the wicked being tormented in the presence of God's people. I would've thought that verse that says "Holy Ones" would mean the Angels or something like that?

Does the fact that it uses capital letters mean anything? How can we know which thing it means? Its not that I dont believe you, its just that I have never heard of that before.

Claudia

 

[Joe]

I am interested in hearing who these holy one's are also

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I have never heard that before, about the wicked being tormented in the presence of God's people. I would've thought that verse that says "Holy Ones" would mean the Angels or something like that?

Does the fact that it uses capital letters mean anything? How can we know which thing it means? Its not that I dont believe you, its just that I have never heard of that before.

Claudia

Rev 14 starts out by telling us that the saints - and specifically the 144,000 are with the Lamb wherever He goes.

In 1thess 4 we see that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air -- and in this way they shall ever be WITH the Lord.

It is the saints that witness this horrible event and it is also the Holy Angels.

Think about it - this event is practically manufactured by God. The wicked are all dead at the end of the 1000 years. The only way for them to suffer is for God to raise them up -- so He does.

Then He has the city of God - the camp of the saints in a position that CAN be surrounded by the wicked "and so they do".

Then He convicts all the ungodly of all of their ungodly deeds which they have done (Jude's wording) and has them destroyed right their IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones. It is a vivid lesson to the living of the consequence of sin. And we shall be very thankful for that to end -

THEN in Rev 21 - AFTER the Lake of Fire event has ended and the New Earth is created - THEN "He shall wipe away every tear".

In Christ,

Bob