My thoughts on Calvinism.

[pLug]

When I think of God in the beginning, I think of a being who is totally and completely unfettered by any limitations and whose will is total and absolute. So what did this being choose to do with the unlimited possibilities of an all-powerful creator?
He created us.
This speaks to me of an unfathomable generosity and graciousness. And to top it all of, the creator gave us a choice to have communion with him or reject him. This gift of choice is the most incineratingly beautiful concept I have ever come in to contact with. I think the theology of Calvinism belittles this gift.

 

[dispen4ever]

Me, too. I've gone back over the last year or so, and Calvinism has been discussed to death on these boards. But that's my .02 cents.

 

[Brother Bob]

One thing good about the C/A debates. They sure will make you dig deep into the Scriptures. They have been tough at times but to be honest, I am glad I have been involved in them because I think I can defend the position you just stated much better now than when I first came on BB. You have to give them credit for knowing Scripture, I just think they have it wrong.

 

[pLug]

One thing good about the C/A debates. They sure will make you dig deep into the Scriptures. They have been tough at times but to be honest, I am glad I have been involved in them because I think I can defend the position you just stated much better now than when I first came on BB. You have to give them credit for knowing Scripture, I just think they have it wrong.

The funny thing is, scripture provides a total paradox on this issue.

 

[Brother Bob]

You know, I doubt if there is a paradox there at all it is just all of our lack of understanding of the scriptures, which is nothing to be ashamed of for we only see through a glass darkly and God gives us what understanding He wants us to have.

 

[tragic_pizza]

When I think of God in the beginning, I think of a being who is totally and completely unfettered by any limitations and whose will is total and absolute. So what did this being choose to do with the unlimited possibilities of an all-powerful creator?
He created us.
This speaks to me of an unfathomable generosity and graciousness. And to top it all of, the creator gave us a choice to have communion with him or reject him. This gift of choice is the most incineratingly beautiful concept I have ever come in to contact with. I think the theology of Calvinism belittles this gift.

How so? Calvinism, at least in its Reformed understanding, has nothing to do with a lack of choice, and everything to do with the sovereignty of God.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

How so? Calvinism, at least in its Reformed understanding, has nothing to do with a lack of choice, and everything to do with the sovereignty of God.

Well said.

 

[BobRyan]

Calvinism has everything to do with slavery to sin - and a total lack of choice.

In Calvinism you are either enslaved to sin - choosing sin like a slave but then having that slavery called "free will" - OR your brain is being "zapped" so that the lost person wakes up one morning and while eating their cheerios they suddenly "discover" that they are "already saved" -- "already born again" -- "already in harmony with God" and seeing that this already happened to them - they simply "choose" to continue being saved - because they can not choose anything else (and surely if they COULD choose something else they WOULD not - since no SAVED person would choose to be lost).

Calvinism is totally rebuffed by the text of Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock" because this places God on the OUTSIDE knocking and man ALONE on the INSIDE expected to hear AND TPEN the door.

There is no "Behold I bust down the door and come in" nor even a "behold I let myself in and helped myself to your home"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[El_Guero]

Great tho'ts!

 

[av1611jim]

I suppose Calvinism's understanding of free will falls completely apart in Genesis.
Genesis is the place of beginnings.
All the great doctrines of the faith have their beginnings in Genesis.
One of which is man's responsibility to his Creator.
God gave Adam a choice. Every tree in the garden, including the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the knowledgeof good and evil. Adam CHOSE sin.

Ta da! Adam had no depraved nature which forced him to choose sin.
therefore, Calvinism's assertions are wrong.

God says, choose you this day who you will serve.
There is no trick to it. Man is fully capable to choose life or death. A depraved nature has nothing to do with it.

 

[Brother Bob]

I suppose Calvinism's understanding of free will falls completely apart in Genesis.
Genesis is the place of beginnings.
All the great doctrines of the faith have their beginnings in Genesis.
One of which is man's responsibility to his Creator.
God gave Adam a choice. Every tree in the garden, including the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the knowledgeof good and evil. Adam CHOSE sin.

Ta da! Adam had no depraved nature which forced him to choose sin.
therefore, Calvinism's assertions are wrong.

God says, choose you this day who you will serve.
There is no trick to it. Man is fully capable to choose life or death. A depraved nature has nothing to do with it.

I thought you hated the C/A debates?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Calvinism has everything to do with slavery to sin - and a total lack of choice.

In Calvinism you are either enslaved to sin - choosing sin like a slave but then having that slavery called "free will" - OR your brain is being "zapped" so that the lost person wakes up one morning and while eating their cheerios they suddenly "discover" that they are "already saved" -- "already born again" -- "already in harmony with God" and seeing that this already happened to them - they simply "choose" to continue being saved - because they can not choose anything else (and surely if they COULD choose something else they WOULD not - since no SAVED person would choose to be lost).

That is an interesting interpretation. Astonishingly incorrect, but interesting.

Calvinism is totally rebuffed by the text of Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock" because this places God on the OUTSIDE knocking and man ALONE on the INSIDE expected to hear AND TPEN the door.

Behold Who stands at the door? Who knocks?


Who is taking primary action, reaching out, seeking, calling?

Answer that, and you have defined Calvinism. No one "discovers" they are saved. Rather, we acknowledge that the work neccessary for our salvation and reconciliation to God has already been accomplished in Jesus Christ. We must do -- we CAN do -- nothing to complete it.

When any man opens the door, that is a response to actions taken BY GOD for reconciliation.

That is Calvinism.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Ta da! Adam had no depraved nature which forced him to choose sin.
therefore, Calvinism's assertions are wrong.

Ta da! You completely misunderstand the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity.
Therefore, your assertions are wrong.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I suppose Calvinism's understanding of free will falls completely apart in Genesis.
Genesis is the place of beginnings.
All the great doctrines of the faith have their beginnings in Genesis.
One of which is man's responsibility to his Creator.
God gave Adam a choice. Every tree in the garden, including the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the knowledgeof good and evil. Adam CHOSE sin.

Ta da! Adam had no depraved nature which forced him to choose sin.
therefore, Calvinism's assertions are wrong.

God says, choose you this day who you will serve.
There is no trick to it. Man is fully capable to choose life or death. A depraved nature has nothing to do with it.

Calvinism does not deny men's choice or his responsibility. That is a strawman. Was Adam and Eve's choice free in the libertarian sense? No Why? Because Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. That being.... Adam and Eve could not have chosen any different than they did.

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvinism say you have a choice but you can't use it!

 

[tragic_pizza]

Calvinism say you have a choice but you can't use it!

Calvinism says nothing of the sort.

 

[Jim1999]

Some people appear to know what John Calvin wrote better than John Calvin did himself. Amazing!

What is that old saying, "Don't quote scripture to me, I already know what I want to believe."?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[reformedbeliever]

Calvinism say you have a choice but you can't use it!

Another dishonest misrepresentation. Typical of you. You have been told this too many times to not know it. Does this mean you are just dishonest?

 

[Eric B]

No one "discovers" they are saved. Rather, we acknowledge that the work neccessary for our salvation and reconciliation to God has already been accomplished in Jesus Christ. We must do -- we CAN do -- nothing to complete it.

When any man opens the door, that is a response to actions taken BY GOD for reconciliation.

That is Calvinism.

Well, if Limited Atonement is true, and the work necessary for salvation was only, specifically for them, from the beginning of the world, and everyone whom this work was accomplished for WILL become saved, then that is for all purposes the same as "discovering they are saved". The only difference is the insertion of the legal transaction of them "responding", and then God declaring at that point they are saved.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Well, if Limited Atonement is true, and the work necessary for salvation was only, specifically for them, from the beginning of the world, and everyone whom this work was accomplished for WILL become saved, then that is for all purposes the same as "discovering they are saved". The only difference is the insertion of the legal transaction of them "responding", and then God declaring at that point they are saved.

I see.

So you're saying Calvinism is wrong, because God can be explained. God works thus-and-such way, and really there's no reason for arguing, just agree. Right?

Atonement is effective for all of humankind, and applicable to those who respond to the call of God. We -- meaning Calvinists -- do not know why some do not respond; rejecting the idea of "double predestination" (which Reformed theology does), we have to admit that we, at least, understand very little about God. Calvinism is an attempt to quantify that which we do know.

We do most decidedly not know that "everyone whom this work was accomplished for WILL become saved." That isn't any of our concern, you see. It is up to God.

Further, it is unScriptural to think that a person can just "discover" they are saved. The Word must be proclaimed for a person to hear and respond.