My thoughts on Calvinism.

[Brother Bob]

Reformed;
1. Do all men have a choice?

Nothing dishonest about asking this question is there?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Reformed;
1. Do all men have a choice?

You think you're trapping him, but you're about to get owned.

 

[Eric B]

I see.

So you're saying Calvinism is wrong, because God can be explained. God works thus-and-such way, and really there's no reason for arguing, just agree. Right?

Atonement is effective for all of humankind, and applicable to those who respond to the call of God. We -- meaning Calvinists -- do not know why some do not respond; rejecting the idea of "double predestination" (which Reformed theology does), we have to admit that we, at least, understand very little about God. Calvinism is an attempt to quantify that which we do know.

We do most decidedly not know that "everyone whom this work was accomplished for WILL become saved." That isn't any of our concern, you see. It is up to God.

Further, it is unScriptural to think that a person can just "discover" they are saved. The Word must be proclaimed for a person to hear and respond.

OK, but then we have to clarify what we are calling "Calvinism" then. Each of these differing interpretations of it considers itself to be the "true" Calvinism. I remember many arguing for it here saying that "Whoever He died for WILL become saved" and implying "the reason why one received Christ is because God regenerated him, and the reason the other did not receive Christ is because God passed him over". These still clained "single-predestination", but others are more strictly Double-Predestination. I always responded to the charge that non-Calvinists are trying to make God easy to understand, that Calvinism does it too when it claims to be able to explain the "how"s of salvation from God's perspective like that. Now you're saying we can't know why one does not respond, and that I can go along with. But others will say that is not really Calvinism.

 

[Brother Bob]

You think you're trapping him, but you're about to get owned.

Why don't you answer if you are so smart?

He has been trying to own me for 2 days and not made it yet.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Why don't you answer if you are so smart?

He has been trying to own me for 2 days and not made it yet.

You can not own an intellectually dishonest person such as bob.

People do make choices bob. We are responsible for our choices. We do not make amoral choices. God's providence will be such that when we make choices, they will always be consistent with His decreed will. God is omniscient bob. The future exists as God knows it bob. There really are no variables in our choices bob. We will always choose in a manner that will be consistent with God's decreed will. That is not libertarian free will bob. I don't expect you to understand this or even if you do to be intellectually honest about it.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Why don't you answer if you are so smart?

He has been trying to own me for 2 days and not made it yet.

OK.

Here goes. You ready?

1. Do all men have a choice?

I don't know, and niether do you.

 

[tragic_pizza]

OK, but then we have to clarify what we are calling "Calvinism" then. Each of these differing interpretations of it considers itself to be the "true" Calvinism. I remember many arguing for it here saying that "Whoever He died for WILL become saved" and implying "the reason why one received Christ is because God regenerated him, and the reason the other did not receive Christ is because God passed him over". These still clained "single-predestination", but others are more strictly Double-Predestination. I always responded to the charge that non-Calvinists are trying to make God easy to understand, that Calvinism does it too when it claims to be able to explain the "how"s of salvation from God's perspective like that. Now you're saying we can't know why one does not respond, and that I can go along with. But others will say that is not really Calvinism.

Well, perhaps it isn't hyperCalvinism, but it is certainly Reformed theology, which is based upon Calvinism.

I recommend "Christian Doctrine" by Shirley Guthrie and "Basic Christian Doctrine" by John Lieth. Both were excellent professors of theology in Reformed schools, and do a very good job of explaining it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hard to debate someone that don't know anything you must not be a Calvinist they know everything.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Hard to debate someone that don't know anything you must not be a Calvinist they know everything.

I know how to use punctuation.

So... convince me you do know.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thats ok, I don't think you and I are compatible.
If I need a grammar lesson or want one, you be the first I will ask.

Anyway, why should I when you don't know whether they do or don't?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Thats ok, I don't think you and I are compatible.
If I need a grammar lesson or want one, you be the first I will ask.

Anyway, why should I when you don't know whether they do or don't?

Well, you're positioning yourself as someone who kows more than I do. I want to know if this is so, and if so, how.

And as for grammar, my lessons are unsolicited and free.

 

[Brother Bob]

And as for grammar, my lessons are unsolicited and free.

The unsolicited part is what I like. You are the one who threw yourself into a debate between Reformed and myself without solicitation.

Positioning myself to say I know more than you. Did you make that up or read it on "google"?

I believe all men have a choice that is for sure.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[2BHizown]

When I think of God in the beginning, I think of a being who is totally and completely unfettered by any limitations and whose will is total and absolute. So what did this being choose to do with the unlimited possibilities of an all-powerful creator?
He created us.
This speaks to me of an unfathomable generosity and graciousness. And to top it all of, the creator gave us a choice to have communion with him or reject him. This gift of choice is the most incineratingly beautiful concept I have ever come in to contact with. I think the theology of Calvinism belittles this gift.

That's your opinion!
I like His better and think I'll choose to abide in Him!

 

[Eric B]

Well, perhaps it isn't hyperCalvinism, but it is certainly Reformed theology, which is based upon Calvinism.

I recommend "Christian Doctrine" by Shirley Guthrie and "Basic Christian Doctrine" by John Lieth. Both were excellent professors of theology in Reformed schools, and do a very good job of explaining it.

I have Guthrie. He was very good on this and other subjects.
Still, there are many Reformed who belive those things you are denying, and those who said them rejected the term "HyperCalvinist". In fact; I see it is something Calvinists of all stripes throw at any version of the doctrine more radical than their own, as Vance (Other Side of Calvinism) pointed out.

 

[Brother Bob]

Do Calvinist believe that when God gives a Command to a person, that person hears/receives the command?

 

[Jarthur001]

Some people appear to know what John Calvin wrote better than John Calvin did himself. Amazing!

What is that old saying, "Don't quote scripture to me, I already know what I want to believe."?

Cheers,

Jim

Sad...but very true.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well, you're positioning yourself as someone who kows more than I do. I want to know if this is so, and if so, how.

And as for grammar, my lessons are unsolicited and free.

Didn't you know..Bob knows it all.

However...I may take you up on those lessons.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is why Jauthor is here to try to learn some more from me. I been teaching him for some time now. He is slow though. But with patience we posses our souls.

 

[tragic_pizza]

The unsolicited part is what I like. You are the one who threw yourself into a debate between Reformed and myself without solicitation.

Positioning myself to say I know more than you. Did you make that up or read it on "google"?

I believe all men have a choice that is for sure.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I don't see anything in those verses which denies Reformed theology.

Here's why I said "I don't know and niether do you": choice and predetermination (to one degree or another) are both supported in Scripture. We know that God is sovereign, that God's purpose will be accomplished, and that God's purpose has already been determined. We also know that humankind has a choice, and free will. What we do not and can not know is how these seemingly contradictory realities coexist.

That, my friend, is the definition of "mystery."

 

[Blammo]

That is an interesting interpretation. Astonishingly incorrect, but interesting.

Behold Who stands at the door? Who knocks?


Who is taking primary action, reaching out, seeking, calling?

Answer that, and you have defined Calvinism. No one "discovers" they are saved. Rather, we acknowledge that the work neccessary for our salvation and reconciliation to God has already been accomplished in Jesus Christ. We must do -- we CAN do -- nothing to complete it.

When any man opens the door, that is a response to actions taken BY GOD for reconciliation.

That is Calvinism.

If that is Calvinism, I am a Calvinist!!!

However, I think you left a few details out, and I am not a Calvinist.