Mysticisism

[Adonia]

Mysticism, what does the Holy Scriptures say about it?

2 Peter 1:21
"For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit".

Mysticism?

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world".

More mysticism?

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter".

Did this man have a mystical experience?

John 16:13
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come".

How about here, mysticism again?

Now, isn't the indwelling of Christ within us best described as being a "mystical union"?

St. Paul says: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me".

 

[Particular]

From the Oxford Dictionary:
mys·ti·cism

/ˈmistəˌsizəm/

noun

1.

belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

"St. Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"

2.

belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.

"there is a hint of New Age mysticism in the show's title"

 

[Adonia]

belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

Which is precisely what happened to the great Catholic mystics, with the only difference in the definition you posted is that Jesus (as in the case of Sister Faustina) came to them. Likewise, the stigmata of Padre Pio was not asked for - it is something that just happened. All of the mystics were in the main involved in deep prayer and meditation, usually as members of religious communities.

 

[Particular]

Which is precisely what happened to the great Catholic mystics, with the only difference in the definition you posted is that Jesus (as in the case of Sister Faustina) came to them. Likewise, the stigmata of Padre Pio was not asked for - it is something that just happened. All of the mystics were in the main involved in deep prayer and meditation, usually as members of religious communities.

So you believe in absorption into a deity?

 

[Adonia]

So you believe in absorption into a deity?

The definition gives 2 possibilities, so no I don't believe in "absorption into" but I believe in "union with" the deity. In fact, this happens at every one of our worship services - it's called Holy Communion.

 

[Particular]

The definition gives 2 possibilities, so no I don't believe in "absorption into" but I believe in "union with" the deity. In fact, this happens at every one of our worship services - it's called Holy Communion.

Union and absorption is the same thing in the definition. They are synonymous.

 

[Adonia]

Union and absorption is the same thing in the definition. They are synonymous.

Sorry, I do not agree. But hey, who really knows as the possibilities concerning God and the concept of "mysticism" are wide open as far as I am concerned. We accept things concerning God because we have faith, so the idea that somehow God cannot expose Himself to someone in what we call a mystical manner is not that farfetched - at least to me. Dreams are one way in which the Creator has appeared to people, or do you deny that happens too?

 

[Particular]

Sorry, I do not agree. But hey, who really knows as the possibilities concerning God and the concept of "mysticism" are wide open as far as I am concerned. We accept things concerning God because we have faith, so the idea that somehow God cannot expose Himself to someone in what we call a mystical manner is not that farfetched - at least to me. Dreams are one way in which the Creator has appeared to people, or do you deny that happens too?

Adonia, faith is driven by God's word, not by "wide open" possibilities. The occult is mysticism. It feeds off the concept of tapping into and using spirit energy for ones selfish desires. It glories in self-power.
I note that when you and others bring up mysticism, it is all about the experience a human being has. It glorifies that humans declared experience, while ignoring God's word as the agent by which one discerns God's action from demonic action.
The claims I read of in the Roman Catholic Church are not in line with God's revealed word. Discernment finds its basis in God's word. Thus, mysticism goes contrary to God's declared word and takes away from God's glory.

 

[Adonia]

Thus, mysticism goes contrary to God's declared word and takes away from God's glory.

All you have there is your opinion on the issue. What was happening to the prophets of old? If anything, it was a mystical experience with the Creator. So no, I disagree with you, mysticism is quite in line with the scriptures and does not go against God's word.

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world".

 

[Particular]

All you have there is your opinion on the issue. What was happening to the prophets of old? If anything, it was a mystical experience with the Creator. So no, I disagree with you, mysticism is quite in line with the scriptures and does not go against God's word.

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world".

The Prophets foretold what God was doing. They were not "absorbed" into God or made one with God as they wrote/spoke.
Mysticism is occult activity with the glory given to the one tapping into the energy force. It is quite demonic in its nature and function.

 

[utilyan]

The Prophets foretold what God was doing. They were not "absorbed" into God or made one with God as they wrote/spoke.
Mysticism is occult activity with the glory given to the one tapping into the energy force. It is quite demonic in its nature and function.

There is no such thing in your theology being that everyone who is a reprobate already is a child of the devil and everything they do is demonic in nature.

In your theology sinning is not more dangerous than not sinning. You can have an ELECT serial killer and a non-elect coma victim. The killer is going to heaven, the one in the coma is going to hell for the "glory of GOD".

IF a person can better their chances at salvation and get a status change BASE ON WHAT GOOD WORKS THEY DO then OBVIOUSLY its not all on God.

 

[Particular]

There is no such thing in your theology being that everyone who is a reprobate already is a child of the devil and everything they do is demonic in nature.

In your theology sinning is not more dangerous than not sinning. You can have an ELECT serial killer and a non-elect coma victim. The killer is going to heaven, the one in the coma is going to hell for the "glory of GOD".

IF a person can better their chances at salvation and get a status change BASE ON WHAT GOOD WORKS THEY DO then OBVIOUSLY its not all on God.

This makes me sad. [emoji22]
You deny salvation by grace and promote salvation by works. You have denied the teaching of scripture that God alone saves and that we are saved by grace alone.
Such hatred of God's word is just...sad. I am so sorry for you, utilyan.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Mysticism, what does the Holy Scriptures say about it?

2 Peter 1:21
"For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit".

Mysticism?

Not mysticism - divine inspiration.

1 John 4:1

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world".

More mysticism?

Not mysticism - spiritual discernment

2 Corinthians 12:2-4

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter".

Did this man have a mystical experience?

Not mysticism - divine revelation

John 16:13

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come".

How about here, mysticism again?

Not mysticism - divine illumination

Now, isn't the indwelling of Christ within us best described as being a "mystical union"?

When the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, it may be a mystery how an infinite God can dwell in a finite being, but it certainly isn't mystical.

The definition gives 2 possibilities, so no I don't believe in "absorption into" but I believe in "union with" the deity. In fact, this happens at every one of our worship services - it's called Holy Communion.

Can you explain exactly what is happening as you're entering into "union with" deity during "Holy Communion"?

 

[utilyan]

This makes me sad. [emoji22]
You deny salvation by grace and promote salvation by works. You have denied the teaching of scripture that God alone saves and that we are saved by grace alone.
Such hatred of God's word is just...sad. I am so sorry for you, utilyan.

I don't believe in salvation by works. YOU are the one who says a person should behave better.

You said " It is quite demonic in its nature and function." Is not everyone who is not regenerated "quite demonic in its nature and function."?


"This makes me sad."
If a Powerful EVIL entity, not God, or a ever landed on earth with the power to kill everyone instantly or bring back to life SURE enough you'd be grovelling and worshiping it. Your eye is on false idea of Power, Might makes right.

You sold out to worship an evil version of God, so evil a child can't even ask questions. You threw away Jesus Christ. This makes me sad.

 

[Particular]

I don't believe in salvation by works. YOU are the one who says a person should behave better.

You said " It is quite demonic in its nature and function." Is not everyone who is not regenerated "quite demonic in its nature and function."?


"This makes me sad."
If a Powerful EVIL entity, not God, or a ever landed on earth with the power to kill everyone instantly or bring back to life SURE enough you'd be grovelling and worshiping it. Your eye is on false idea of Power, Might makes right.

You sold out to worship an evil version of God, so evil a child can't even ask questions. You threw away Jesus Christ. This makes me sad.

[emoji22]
You consider the God of the Bible to be evil. [emoji22]

 

[Adonia]

Not mysticism - divine inspiration.


Not mysticism - spiritual discernment


Not mysticism - divine revelation



Not mysticism - divine illumination


When the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, it may be a mystery how an infinite God can dwell in a finite being, but it certainly isn't mystical.



Can you explain exactly what is happening as you're entering into "union with" deity during "Holy Communion"?

Very well done on answering the questions I posed on mysticism and the Holy Scriptures. Your answers are distinct possibilities to be sure.

As for Holy Communion and the deity, Jesus is the deity (God Incarnate) on this earth is He not? And since we believe in His "Real Presence" in the Holy Eucharist, when we receive Him in that sacrament we do indeed have a distinct unity with Him at that moment.

 

[Adonia]

The Prophets foretold what God was doing. They were not "absorbed" into God or made one with God as they wrote/spoke.
Mysticism is occult activity with the glory given to the one tapping into the energy force. It is quite demonic in its nature and function.

I do not agree at all. Not one true Christian mystic has ever claimed the glory, but in their writings consistently give all the glory to Jesus Christ and God the Father.

 

[utilyan]

[emoji22]
You consider the God of the Bible to be evil. [emoji22]

I believe the God of the bible is Love as the bible states. Not the spiritual Hitler. God doesn't grant a spiritual superior skin to few favored people and then hates the rest.

God does not unconditional hate people before they even exist.

If you heard one day God loves to torture children, YOU'd believe it right away. you do absolutely nothing to defend God's character.

 

[Particular]

I believe the God of the bible is Love as the bible states. Not the spiritual Hitler. God doesn't grant a spiritual superior skin to few favored people and then hates the rest.

God does not unconditional hate people before they even exist.

If you heard one day God loves to torture children, YOU'd believe it right away. you do absolutely nothing to defend God's character.

You are forcing God to exist by your means of existence and follow your rules and your standard of morality. Thus, you call the God of the Bible...Hitler.
I feel sad for you, utilyan. [emoji22]

 

[Particular]

I do not agree at all. Not one true Christian mystic has ever claimed the glory, but in their writings consistently give all the glory to Jesus Christ and God the Father.

Since there is not "one true mystic" I suggest the glory goes to the person. Since you glory in that person and their experience as greater than other brothers and sisters, it is obvious they get the glory.