N-C's Really Agree With Much of Calvinism

[Allan]

Let me quote some from another chapter which I had left out entirely because I thought that non-Cals would throughly disagree with it.

I will quote from chapter 9 "Of Free Will". I'll do one head per post and wait for a response from the N-C's.

"1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to do good or evil."

Rippon, you might just be surprised that we agree with the wording of the headings or chapters you give.

Such as #1 - Agreed.

 

[Allan]

"2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it."

#2 - Agreed.

But I will state the end might be modified because it could appear from the wording that God gave man the freedom to will for the sole purpose of making man fall from the relationship God created man in with Himself.

It could be aptly phrased "but yet mutably, man would fall due do it."
But that is me.

 

[Allan]

"3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."

#3 - No problem here either, so it is also agreed upon remembering that this is man without the intervention of God but man left to himself.

 

[Allan]

"4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil."

#4 - Again agreed since this is speaking after the conversion or salvation of a person.

 

[Allan]

"5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only."

#5 - I agree but it does need some clarification in order to state it is a view of most Non-Cals and not just mine. The man who is saved can still sin thus they do not do "good alone" but if it is speaking of the only time we can do any spiritual good works in the state of glory alone - That is something the Non-Cals agree with.

 

[Rippon]

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty , that it is neither forced , nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined , to good or evil .

2. Man , in his state of innocency , had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God ; but yet mutably , so that he might fall from it .

I thought I had left this chapter out entirely early on, but this from post# 8 proves me wrong. Anyway, for the most, as Allan has said, many N-C's would subscribe to most of chapter 9 regarding Free Will, with some degree of modification.

That brings the overall agreement to 75% or so.

 

[Rippon]

Chapter 6

This chapter is called:"Of The Fall Of Man, Of Sin, And The Punishment Thereof" . It has six heads. I had dismissed it as being too non-Calvinistic. However, I would not mind being proved wrong on this score.

I'll do one head at a time per post.

"1. Our First Parents being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory."

 

[Allan]

I thought I had left this chapter out entirely early on, but this from post# 8 proves me wrong. Anyway, for the most, as Allan has said, many N-C's would subscribe to most of chapter 9 regarding Free Will, with some degree of modification.

That brings the overall agreement to 75% or so.

As I have said before Rippon. We Non-Cals and Cals do not disagree so much on the doctrines as we do in varying degrees on the mechanics of some doctrines.

And though there are some on both sides of the fence who are diametrically opposed to the other the truth is that we do agree in main on the main.

 

[Rippon]

Continuing With Chapter 6

"2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body."

 

[Allan]

This chapter is called:"Of The Fall Of Man, Of Sin, And The Punishment Thereof" . It has six heads. I had dismissed it as being too non-Calvinistic. However, I would not mind being proved wrong on this score.

I'll do one head at a time per post.

"1. Our First Parents being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory."

#1 - Agreed.

Notably that it pleased God to 'permit' their rebellion according to His wise and holy council for His own glory.

 

[Rippon]

Continuing With Chapter 6

"3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation."

 

[Allan]

"2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body."

#2 - this one would need a clarification of 'dead in sin'. but on face value it is (for those non-cals who hold to original sin) it acceptable and agreeable.

 

[Allan]

"3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation."

#3 - agreed.

 

[Rippon]

Continuing With Chapter 6

"4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evi, do proceed all actual trasgressions."

 

[Allan]

"4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evi, do proceed all actual trasgressions."

#4 - is also agreed upon since of ourselves we can not save ourselves being deposed to and being of a fallen nature and therefore unable to do any works of salvic good or godly righteousness.

 

[Rippon]

Continuing With Chapter 6

"5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated: and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin."

 

[Allan]

"5. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated: and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin."

#5 - Agreed.

 

[Rippon]

Concluding Chapter 6

"6. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereonto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritually, temporal, and eternal."

 

[Allan]

"6. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereonto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritually, temporal, and eternal."

#6 - agreed

 

[Rippon]

I don't want to belabor this. From what Allan has been saying it looks like some non-Cals like him would agree with most of The Westminster Confession of Faith.That subgroup may be in the minority.However, even those who won't go as far as Allan does in agreement with it still show an affinity with Calvinism as expressed in this well-known statement. I will not go through the rest of the material in the Confession. I think my point has been established that most non-Cals agree with the bulk of this very famous document of the Christian faith.Perhaps not as much as 85%, but certainly a solid 70% of conformity might be held.