N.T. Wright and Justification

[JonC]

You do know that truth is truth, a fact is a fact, regardless of it's source, right?

Just saying...

Lol....yep. I just found it funny.

There is something said for educated sources. The Bible is an ancient text in another language. If we just read it as if it were written contemporary to our day then we risk misunderstanding.

That is an important point wright makes. The Reformers read Scripture as if it were written during the Reformation and the Protestant struggles against the RCC.

Instead we do have to consider how the initial audience would have understood Paul's words.

 

[kyredneck]

That is an important point wright makes. The Reformers read Scripture as if it were written during the Reformation and the Protestant struggles against the RCC.

Instead we do have to consider how the initial audience would have understood Paul's words.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[MrW]

WINNER!! ...more wisdom from your 'Old Baptist' upbringing whether you admit it or not...

"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject.........." Charles Hodge

I don’t know that it’s my upbringing—fine if that’s what it is—but to me it’s just common sense.

I would have never, on my own, come up with the ideas of Calvinism, by reading my KJB. I don’t think anyone would. Some man had to talk them into it, and am surprised some believe it.

I remember being shocked, years after my conversion, that such a belief as amillennialism existed. I had never heard of it. It wasn’t in my Bible, and it has all 66 books.

Then, more years later, I was shocked to find some people think we have been in the Thousand Year Reign for two thousand years and that satan is bound and not deceiving the nations for all that time. Scripture tells me these last days will be shortened, not lengthened. THEN I discovered Flat-Earthers and laughed because I honestly thought they joking. I equate those nutcases with those who think satan isn’t deceiving people today and that we are now starting the third Thousand Year Reign.

 

[JonC]

I don’t know that it’s my upbringing—fine if that’s what it is—but to me it’s just common sense.

I would have never, on my own, come up with the ideas of Calvinism, by reading my KJB. I don’t think anyone would.

I think you hit the nail on the head here....except maybe with not thinking anybody would come up with Calvinism just by reading their Bible.

Nobody just reads the Bible.

We all read according to our upbringing. We all have presuppositions and we will read these presuppositions into the Bible every time unless we are very conscious of our upbringing and its effect on our thinking.


Consider John Calvin, for example. Calvin was trained as a humanistic lawyer (not secular humanism....that's different). Calvinism is dependent on this particular idea of justice and that as a replacement for Roman Catholic doctrine. His upbringing as a Catholic and his education in the philosophy of humanistic law had an effect on how he read the Bible.

Consider evangelical Baptists. We typically hold a Calvinistic understanding of the Atonement. Why? Because of Presbyterian and Methodist influences (remember Methodist branched off from Presbyterians). We pick and choose Calvinism or free-will theology but we also tend to cling to presuppositions that originated during the Reformation. It seems to us as "common sense", but this is only from our mindset.

 

[kyredneck]

I don’t know that it’s my upbringing—fine if that’s what it is—but to me it’s just common sense.

I would have never, on my own, come up with the ideas of Calvinism, by reading my KJB. I don’t think anyone would. Some man had to talk them into it, and am surprised some believe it.

I remember being shocked, years after my conversion, that such a belief as amillennialism existed. I had never heard of it. It wasn’t in my Bible, and it has all 66 books.

Then, more years later, I was shocked to find some people think we have been in the Thousand Year Reign for two thousand years and that satan is bound and not deceiving the nations for all that time. Scripture tells me these last days will be shortened, not lengthened. THEN I discovered Flat-Earthers and laughed because I honestly thought they joking. I equate those nutcases with those who think satan isn’t deceiving people today and that we are now starting the third Thousand Year Reign.

Sounds as if you were born to be a Dispie Free Willer...

 

[JonC]

Sounds as if you were born to be a Dispie Free Willer...

Predestined, you mean.

 

[MrW]

There is something said for educated sources. The Bible is an ancient text in another language.

Not mine.

Mine is in English.

[emoji41]

 

[JonC]

Not mine.

Mine is in English.

[emoji41]

Yep. That's why we have people like John of Japan.

 

[Van]

22 and 23

“Justification” is not God’s act of changing the heart or character; Paul uses the verb “call,” the call that comes through the word and the Spirit, to denote that change. “Justification” has a specific, and narrower, reference: It is God’s declaration that the person is now in the right, which confers on them the status of “righteous.”

No mention in post number 22 that justification means "being made righteous" when transferred into Christ's spiritual body by the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ. Instead, the opposite is clearly proclaimed, no change is heart or character is meant by Paul's use of the word translated Justification.

In post number 23, a possible inference could be claimed, to belong to Christ implies someone has been put in Christ,but your claim seems false, no where did I see "Wright offered a definition that includes two aspects - a declaration and being placed in Christ.

 

[Van]

How can you possibly say that in direct contradiction to the Word of God??

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

Romans 4:22
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness:
Romans 4:23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Romans 4:24
but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Imputed is "credited to his account".

Net another false claim.

First, your false claim was that righteousness is imputed, not imparted. When individuals undergo the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ, righteous is imparted in that they are "made righteous."

Second, another false claim by you was that "sanctification is the process of making it [righteousness] experiential." The Greek word translated as "sanctification" refers to being set apart for a purpose or the mechanism used to make someone or something holy.

Romans 4:11 refers to believers having their faith credited to them as righteousness, not being made righteous.

The "it" in Romans 4:22 is "Abraham's faith." Ditto, the second "it" in Romans 4:23.

In Romans 4:24 we see that our faith will also be credited to us as righteousness, IF [God determines] we believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

Lastly James 2:23 again refers to Abraham's faith which was credited to Abraham as righteousness

Thus not one of your cited verses actually supports your false claims..

 

[Van]

Lol, @Van does it all the time...

Vanology for the most part is "in direct contradiction to the Word of God".

Hang around, you'll see.

Yet another naysayer posting "Falseology" due to seeming animus rather than enlightenment.