N. T. Wright on women bishops

[thomas15]

Which is one of the reasons I gave up on this thread. I think there is a lack of honesty here. It is not that anyone is lying, but plenty are passing judgment on a man's writings but won't admit to the extent of what they have read (lack of honesty). Even worse, I've heard the "Well I read his book, *&^^%$$, and that was enough." Some of my favorite discussions have been w/ people who have given Wright a fair treatment and decent reading and disagreed. There is a genuine discussion of the issues b/c the issues are known and known to be known. That is not the case here. I feel like you don't know much of his view (but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong here if you'd prove it) and I certainly don't know that you know Wright (b/c you won't tell us what you've read of him).

But I'm not going to beat this horse any more. It is closer to politics to force the issue. Carry on brethren.

Tim we disagree on some core items. OK, fine. In theory we should have more in agreement than say with a RCC or Anglican theologian but no, the fawning over Wright and others who conduct their worship in ways contrary to Baptist practice or the core beliefs on fundamentals of the faith is amazing.

What I have tried to discuss is the completely over the top, out of proportion admiration for this and other theologians on a Baptist forum. Without even a blush, some here will skewer a Baptist dispensational theologian or layman who gets their theology from the Bible and on the next thread throw money, roses and gold dust at Wright as if there isn't a single Baptist theologian in print.

I'm not talking about hyper legalistic separation where anyone outside of one's particular association is considered apostate. The theology between the C of E and any conservative Baptist association or seminary is huge, I'm sure you know this. And I'm not advocating book burning. I picked up my copy of Paul and opened up to a random page and commented on it from what I also thought was a Baptist perspective. This forum didn’t address what I wrote. And I ended up dodging bullets.

 

[Greektim]

Tim we disagree on some core items. OK, fine. In theory we should have more in agreement than say with a RCC or Anglican theologian but no, the fawning over Wright and others who conduct their worship in ways contrary to Baptist practice or the core beliefs on fundamentals of the faith is amazing.

What I have tried to discuss is the completely over the top, out of proportion admiration for this and other theologians on a Baptist forum. Without even a blush, some here will skewer a Baptist dispensational theologian or layman who gets their theology from the Bible and on the next thread throw money, roses and gold dust at Wright as if there isn't a single Baptist theologian in print.

I'm not talking about hyper legalistic separation where anyone outside of one's particular association is considered apostate. The theology between the C of E and any conservative Baptist association or seminary is huge, I'm sure you know this. And I'm not advocating book burning. I picked up my copy of Paul and opened up to a random page and commented on it from what I also thought was a Baptist perspective. This forum didn’t address what I wrote. And I ended up dodging bullets.

Maybe I should preface that I am an evangelical more than I am a baptist (similar to someone saying he is a Virginian first before an American). I am baptistic in my theology and part of the SBC. But I'm not baptist be/c it is the end all be all denomination. I don't think being baptist is all that great of a thing. I can get along w/ many different kinds of evangelicals.

 

[thomas15]

Maybe I should preface that I am an evangelical more than I am a baptist (similar to someone saying he is a Virginian first before an American). I am baptistic in my theology and part of the SBC. But I'm not baptist be/c it is the end all be all denomination. I don't think being baptist is all that great of a thing. I can get along w/ many different kinds of evangelicals.

I'm more baptistic than baptist also but remember where we are. As much as I appreciate the baptist tradition, since moving to NE PA in 2004 it has been a struggle for me. That is what drove me to joining this BB, to find out more about various baptist groups that maybe I didn't know about.

We have the extreames here in NE PA and nothing in between. I'm actually thinking about leaving the fold but even it I do I cannot imagine that it would change my personal theology by and large. And while I' at it true confession, I consider myself to be one of those 4.5 pointers but I have to admit that those who are critical of the behavor of 5 pointers actually score points with me for what it's worth. I'm not, contrary to opinion, a company man.

One other thing, in my opinion, the designation evangelical, while maybe 25 years ago stood for something but again, my opinion, the term is too inclusive there days, it has lost it's punch.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Listen, I don't want to argue over the man or his theology any more. I like him, you don't. I know his views and his flaws. I don't think you know them as well as I do, but who cares. Let's move on to gospel issues rather than this peripheral one.

Most of us will buy into a person's work if we agree with him or agree with most of what he has to say. If I recall correctly of what I was taught that is what happen with the German higher criticism, many held many of them highly as great theologians. That might have started in the late 1800's but the harm is still here, look at many of our seminaries.

I've ready some of Wright's work and I'm not in his camp. I try and read a few books of someone I disagree with before I say much about them and of what I've read of his book, we can say I'm not in his camp or would I recommend his work to others.

 

[Greektim]

I'm more baptistic than baptist also but remember where we are. As much as I appreciate the baptist tradition, since moving to NE PA in 2004 it has been a struggle for me. That is what drove me to joining this BB, to find out more about various baptist groups that maybe I didn't know about.

We have the extreames here in NE PA and nothing in between. I'm actually thinking about leaving the fold but even it I do I cannot imagine that it would change my personal theology by and large. And while I' at it true confession, I consider myself to be one of those 4.5 pointers but I have to admit that those who are critical of the behavor of 5 pointers actually score points with me for what it's worth. I'm not, contrary to opinion, a company man.

One other thing, in my opinion, the designation evangelical, while maybe 25 years ago stood for something but again, my opinion, the term is too inclusive there days, it has lost it's punch.

Then we certainly have a large difference in starting points when it comes to theology. For me, baptist theology is not the end all be all of determining good theology. So we have a much different perspective from one another determining good theology from bad. Certainly, we would both claim that Bible is the final arbiter, but as this thread demonstrates, that has not been the case with either of us.

 

[Revmitchell]

For me, baptist theology is not the end all be all of determining good theology.

He didn't say it was. What an arrogant statement.

 

[Greektim]

He didn't say it was. What an arrogant statement.

Don't misunderstand. I am clarifying my view, not his. And how arrogant is it to accuse of arrogance when we are only typing? You don't know my tone. I'm sick of having to defend my words b/c so many don't take the time to assume better of the person behind the keyboard. We all (myself included) need to be more Christ-like in this regard.

 

[Revmitchell]

Don't misunderstand. I am clarifying my view, not his. And how arrogant is it to accuse of arrogance when we are only typing? You don't know my tone.

Tone has nothing to do with hit.

For me, baptist theology is not the end all be all of determining good theology.

This implies that Baptist theology is the end all be all for him.

I'm sick of having to defend my words b/c so many don't take the time to assume better of the person behind the keyboard. We all (myself included) need to be more Christ-like in this regard.

Oh you must mean like this:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1928266&postcount=17

By the way I do not bash Wright.

 

[Greektim]

Tone has nothing to do with hit.



This implies that Baptist theology is the end all be all for him.



Oh you must mean like this:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1928266&postcount=17

By the way I do not bash Wright.

And yet again...

I did include myself as those who need to improve. Or did you miss that???

And thomas15 said he is more baptistic than baptists. So what can I make of that but we have very different starting points, and for him baptist theology is the beginning of his. So I think it is reasonable to assert that he thinks baptist theology is the bees knees. But since tone has nothing to do with it, then back off. How ironic that you accused me of arrogance and yet say tone has nothing to do with it. I'm calling hogwash on that one! How else do you determine arrogance if not through tone. I could say something arrogantly ("I am amazing") and my tone could change it if meant in sarcasm. I can't believe I am defending myself more. This is asinine.

BTW... did anyone accuse you of bashing Wright???

 

[thomas15]

Certainly, we would both claim that Bible is the final arbiter, but as this thread demonstrates, that has not been the case with either of us.

Being a dispensationalist doesn't mean the individual is unread. You probably don't care about my academic achievements anymore than I care about yours but just so you know, I have a considerable amount of post secondary paper, very little of it is in theology.

I'm currently taking an advanced undergraduate biology class strictly for personal enrichment. I get to hear and write all about the theories of selectivity. That hasn't changed my belief in a literal 6 day creation and a young earth, infact it actually has strengthened my faith in this area because the professor begins many remarks with the phrase "we don't know____" with respect to where some of the complex systems of life and creation comes from.

My sense is (although I could be wrong) that you and I could disagree on infalibility of Scriptures with the same degree of zeal as if the topic were covenant theology or N.T. Wright.

 

[Greektim]

Being a dispensationalist doesn't mean the individual is unread. You probably don't care about my academic achievements anymore than I care about yours but just so you know, I have a considerable amount of post secondary paper, very little of it is in theology.

I'm currently taking an advanced undergraduate biology class strictly for personal enrichment. I get to hear and write all about the theories of selectivity. That hasn't changed my belief in a literal 6 day creation and a young earth, infact it actually has strengthened my faith in this area because the professor begins many remarks with the phrase "we don't know____" with respect to where some of the complex systems of life and creation comes from.

My sense is (although I could be wrong) that you and I could disagree on infalibility of Scriptures with the same degree of zeal as if the topic were covenant theology or N.T. Wright.

You deny the infallibility of Scripture?

And I don't mean to imply that dispensationalism is the unacademic view. Many dispies are very academic (I like to think I used to be one having published a few articles in theological journals while a dispensationalist). I didn't even know this was about dispensationalism. I just want to know what of Wright you have read to make some of the sweeping statements you've made. Is it just that one book you mentioned? Did you read the entire book? Are there others? If so, which?

I realized I've never listed what of Wright's I've read.
New Testament and the People of God
Jesus and the Victory of God
(planning on reading part 3 Resurrection of the Son of God & Climax of the Covenants this summer)
Justification
Surprised by Hope
How God Became King
The Challenge of Jesus
and various journal articles he has written that I can get my hands on

 

[Revmitchell]

You deny the infallibility of Scripture?

And I don't mean to imply that dispensationalism is the unacademic view. Many dispies are very academic (I like to think I used to be one having published a few articles in theological journals while a dispensationalist). I didn't even know this was about dispensationalism. I just want to know what of Wright you have read to make some of the sweeping statements you've made. Is it just that one book you mentioned? Did you read the entire book? Are there others? If so, which?

I realized I've never listed what of Wright's I've read.
New Testament and the People of God
Jesus and the Victory of God
(planning on reading part 3 Resurrection of the Son of God & Climax of the Covenants this summer)
Justification
Surprised by Hope
How God Became King
The Challenge of Jesus
and various journal articles he has written that I can get my hands on

Listing them serves no purpose except to prove to you whatever it is you want proved. Deal with the criticism itself and not attack the person criticizing. This is a distraction with nothing substantive.

 

[Greektim]

Listing them serves no purpose except to prove to you whatever it is you want proved. Deal with the criticism itself and not attack the person criticizing. This is a distraction with nothing substantive.

Tell me, sir, what is the criticism??? Cause I don't know anymore. Do you?

I was trying to be fair. It is hard to be fair and ask someone to list something that I myself have not listed. So instead of thinking so ill of me and that everything I do must be malicious, try being a bit more objective. I was being genuine and altruistic.

And so far, what of substance have you offered except being critical of me? You have got to be one of the bigger hypocrites here. You accuse me of lacking purpose, attacking the person, and distraction. But that sounds a lot like you and your responses to me. Just stop responding to me. I'm finished with you.