Narnia

[Johnv]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
however; the general christian populace believes that Narnia does equate its imagery to the Bible.

So what? So long as they don't hold the book/movie up to the level of scripture, there is no problem. Infiusing a story with scriptural themes is perfectly permissible.

We obviously agree that holding something other than scripture to the level of scripture is wrong. Where we disagree is when you imply that everyone who hold the book/movie in a favorable light is doing so. I don't know a single person who does this.

If God says that witchcraft and magic are an abomination to Him, do you think He changed His mind just for CS Lewis?

I don't think God has a problem with fictional tales that use such tools in their telling of a moral story. Otherwise, I'm going to have to chuck my copy of the Tales of King Arthur.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
I am curious, John, if you really believe that God would use Greek mythology [gods and goddesses and demonic figures] to proclaim the Gospel message?

God can use what He wishes. So long as one does not equate a nonscriptural story to scripture, then I see no problem with reading greek mythology, medieval literature, or similar stories. </font>[/QUOTE]Taking your statement literally, God can use a prostitute to evangelize her clients? Your principle is silly and false.

The problem is precisely that mythology does give context and meaning to the story. It integrates the supposed Christian meaning into a pagan symbol resulting in a twisted and warped view of the Christian truth since the symbolism carries meaning of its own. How much distortion can truth stand and still be the truth? Obvious error is less dangerous than a concealed lie. Apparent falsehood can be recognized and refuted whereas camouflaged and half lies pass unrecognized as the truth.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Taking your statement literally, God can use a prostitute to evangelize her clients? Your principle is silly and false.

That's completely apples and oranges. You're a sinner same as the protstitute, as am I. God has probably used us, and if he wants to use a prostitute, then I have no authority to say otherwise.

But this topic isn't about witnessing. It's about fiction. The use of fiction as a moral tool is completely at the behest of the one who reads that tool. I once used a story of a can of coke and a coupon as an evangelism tool.

[Mythology] integrates the supposed Christian meaning into a pagan symbol resulting in a twisted and warped view of the Christian truth since the symbolism carries meaning of its own.

That's a bit of a jump that requires an individual to abandon discernment to subscribe to. I don't subscribe to it.

 

[paidagogos]

Does anyone know what C.S. Lews thought about Charles Williams' "coinherence" view? If you need to bone up on "coinherence," check out the following: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~urc/symbols.html

Would you call anyone who believed this swill an orthodox theologian? It's as bad as any liberal, ecumenicist, or interfaith proponent. Would you recommend his books?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
I think you missed the point:

"Lewis was careful to debunk the idea that Narnia was a mere allegory to the Christian story. Rather, Lewis said that his theology merely "bubbled" up to the surface of his story. Because of his commitment to Christ, biblical truths would find themselves into his creation. Lewis explains: "Everything began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sled, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn't anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord. It was part of the bubbling."

"The story of Narnia is not a biblical allegory." emphasis mine "Rather it grows out of a central Christian supposition held by Lewis. Suppose there was another world, much like ours, but filled with talking animals rather than human beings. Suppose that world fell into sin, like ours, and needed a savior much like Jesus.

"Aslan entered Narnia as a lion, just as Jesus came into our world in the form of a man. Based upon this supposition, Lewis created a fantasy world that mirrored the central theme in our world—salvation through the death and resurrection of God's son. The magical part of Lewis' story is that somehow we are drawn more deeply into our relationship with God in the real world through our encounter with Narnia."

http://www.planetwisdom.com/seanmcdowell/findinggodinnarnia.php

Sounds a lot like a Charles Williams mystical fantasy to me rather than a Christian allegory. Ever read old Charlie?

 

[Boanerges]

Too many facts PG....you are messing with our "feelings".....stop it

okay everyone..head back in sand!

 

[paidagogos]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Johnv posted:
[Mythology] integrates the supposed Christian meaning into a pagan symbol resulting in a twisted and warped view of the Christian truth since the symbolism carries meaning of its own.

That's a bit of a jump that requires an individual to abandon discernment to subscribe to. I don't subscribe to it.</font>[/QUOTE]Johnv, the least you could do is quote me accurately. I posted: “The problem is precisely that mythology does give context and meaning to the story. It integrates the supposed Christian meaning into a pagan symbol resulting in a twisted and warped view of the Christian truth since the symbolism carries meaning of its own. How much distortion can truth stand and still be the truth? Obvious error is less dangerous than a concealed lie. Apparent falsehood can be recognized and refuted whereas camouflaged and half lies pass unrecognized as the truth.” The antecedent of “it” is story, not mythology. I still haven’t figured out whether you pointedly ignore my points, deliberately misconstrue them, or simply don’t understand them but we’re not communicating on the same channels.

If you read carefully, I have not condemned reading myth or fantasy. I’ve read a fair share myself. However, I do have a real problem with using mythology or pagan fantasy to communicate theological content. It is one thing to read myth as literature and quite another to read it for theological content. I can’t see why everyone is so hyper over a fantasy laden with theological statements and symbolism of which half are inaccurate at best and wrong at worst. As a student of literature, I contend the two are antithetical because of the pagan content latent within any mythological symbolism. Once myth acquires symbolic meaning in a culture, it cannot be emptied.

Narnia is not a Christian allegory of the genre as Piligrim’s Progress but it is a fantasy with a few Christian themes amalgamated with pagan notions. As a story, it is delightful and entertaining for children, I suppose, but as theology, it is contaminated and reeks of mysticism in the Charles Williams vein. My post was specifically directed toward using Narnia as an evangelistic tool. In evangelization, your audience is impoverished of theological knowledge and lacks discernment. He is a sinner alienated from God. Why in the world do you want to confuse him with a mixture of Christian truth and pagan symbolism? How can you expect him to be discerning when he is blind and ignorant of truth? Come on now!

IMHO, it’s a pride thing. Some Christians are so struck on being intellectual, literate, sophisticated, suave, cool, and worldly (i.e. worldly wise and accepted) that they trip all over themselves falling for any foolishness. This is the drive behind the Narnia mania.

 

[paidagogos]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Johnv posted:
Originally posted by paidagogos:
Taking your statement literally, God can use a prostitute to evangelize her clients? Your principle is silly and false.

That's completely apples and oranges. You're a sinner same as the protstitute, as am I. God has probably used us, and if he wants to use a prostitute, then I have no authority to say otherwise.

But this topic isn't about witnessing. It's about fiction. The use of fiction as a moral tool is completely at the behest of the one who reads that tool. I once used a story of a can of coke and a coupon as an evangelism tool.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but you opened up the whole world to apples, oranges, pears, bananas, coconuts and muskmelons with your wide open statement. That’s the problem with declaring such wide-ranging pontifications. Most absolute statements of always and never are usually false somewhere. So, I pushed your ill-considered statement to an illogical extreme to show how silly it was.

BTW, we are talking about evangelism too since Narnia is being hailed as the greatest evangelistic obsession since the Four Spiritual Suggestions.

You said: “The use of fiction as a moral tool is completely at the behest of the one who reads that tool.” So, the fiction can mean anything or nothing according to the readers? This sounds like some deconstructionist literary doublespeak. How can you be sure the readers are getting the Christian message concealed in the fiction? They could be getting a subliminal occult message. How do you know according to your statement?

Say, have you thought of a way of using a Bud Lite can and lottery ticket as an evangelistic tool?

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Quote by paidagogos
"…since Narnia is being hailed as the greatest evangelistic obsession since the Four Spiritual Suggestions."

"Now, we are promoting the Disney movie, Narnia, as the greatest tool of evangelism since Gutenberg invented the printing press."

We are not doing that at all. My post was to point out that because Lewis was a Christian, Christian themes came out of his fictional story.

You asked if I believe God can use mythology to reach people. The Lord can use WHATEVER, WHOMEVER, HOWEVER He wants!

I am a Christian. If I were to write a children's tale about betrayal, sacrifice, and redemption, then it's VERY possible that my Christian worldview would be in the pages... because I'm a Christian. It's quite easy to pick on Lewis since he had vices that many of us don't, didn't quite believe the exact way that we do, or what have you. The truth is... CON is a collection of children's tales that smack of Christian themes... if you choose to see them.

I'm done on this. I believe the Lord can use this movie (even though it's distributed through Disney) to reach people if their hearts are open to see Him. And ultimately, whether it's through a movie like CON or Passion, or through one on one contact with a KJV Bible open on the table, it is the Lord that draws people to Him, not us. It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict, not us. Blessings, guys.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Joshua wrote:
I am a Christian. If I were to write a children's tale about betrayal, sacrifice, and redemption, then it's VERY possible that my Christian worldview would be in the pages... because I'm a Christian.


Could you please list the similarities between the "sacrifice" of aslan compared to the sacrifice of Jesus - in particular - the specific order of events, the cause of death, who caused the death, how it was done, and the purpose for the sacrifice and what was accomplished in each case. thanx.

 

[tenor]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:

Could you please list the similarities between the "sacrifice" of aslan compared to the sacrifice of Jesus - in particular - the specific order of events, the cause of death, who caused the death, how it was done, and the purpose for the sacrifice and what was accomplished in each case. thanx.

So are you that for an analogy to work they must be identical to the historic events?

The principle here is what is important. Aslan gave himself for others and was resurrected and led his folowers to victory.

A "Christ" figure in an old west analogy could possibly have been hanged, killed by the prevailing execution form of the day.

TLTWaTW is not "the greatest tool for evangelism ever" but I believe it can have a very positive effect for Christ.

Disney is immaterial. We should be supporting the "good" things that come from this studio - If we don't they won't produce them.

I, for one, am extremely about this film, haven't seen it yet - Saturday! I've loved the books since I first read them in High School.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

tenor wrote:
The principle here is what is important. Aslan gave himself for others and was resurrected and led his folowers to victory.


h m m m, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't aslan only die to save edmund? and wasn't aslan's "resurrection" achieved by "deep magic" via an incantation - after 1 night? and .... didn't the four kids "help" aslan to overcome the white witch [he couldn't do it without them]?

Maybe it's just me, but did I miss the application of analogy, imagery, or "allegory" to Christ somewhere?

 

[Boanerges]

Originally posted by tenor:



Disney is immaterial. We should be supporting the "good" things that come from this studio - If we don't they won't produce them.

If we do support the supposed "good" things, they will use that money to make the rubbish also. Can't stand with a foot on each side when you are attempting to be a good steward.

 

[tenor]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
tenor wrote:

h m m m, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't aslan only die to save edmund? and wasn't aslan's "resurrection" achieved by "deep magic" via an incantation - after 1 night? and .... didn't the four kids "help" aslan to overcome the white witch [he couldn't do it without them]?

Maybe it's just me, but did I miss the application of analogy, imagery, or "allegory" to Christ somewhere?

Note my original question of my post -- IOW, you are saying that ALL factors must be identical for an analogy to be valid????? Why did you choose not to answer this very clear question? All it require is yes of no?

Are you also saying that Jesus would not have given himself for just one?

ma I saying that Narnia and scripture are equal? no! Is aslan an "type of Christ?" Yes. ONce again, ALL need not be there for a true picture to be seen. Don't forget this is fiction, even though this fiction contains truth.

It appears you are afraid to answer my question. We also apparently wil never come to an agreement on this, so I feel we should just agree to disagree.

Have a great Christmas or am I offending you by wishing you that.

 

[tenor]

Originally posted by Boanerges:

Originally posted by tenor:



Disney is immaterial. We should be supporting the "good" things that come from this studio - If we don't they won't produce them.

If we do support the supposed "good" things, they will use that money to make the rubbish also. Can't stand with a foot on each side when you are attempting to be a good steward.

Yet if we don't support the good, they won't make because they are in business.

So you are saying that you absolutely in no way purchase products or servies from companies that have "questionable" policies or practices?

Anyway most of the "anti-disney" crowd has based their ideas on fallacies and even outright lies.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

eloi and Boanerges,

Was going to respond to your questions, but I can see through eloi's reply to tenor it would only waste my time. You must be right, and I must be wrong. Evil Lewis, Evil Disney and Evil Anything Remotely Allegorical are out to get us all with works of fiction that resemble goodness but are really evil to the core. I'll make sure I purge my children's library the first chance I get. But until then, I'll just bow out of this conversation. Thanks for your opinions, and thanks for helping me to solidify my own.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

[tenor]

Thank you, Joshua...

 

[nate]

Not to get this thing off topic but just thought I'de post this over here as well. Narnia has made 115 million worldwide in 5 days. It cost 180 million to make. It made 65 million in just the weekend and 42 million overseas for the complete 5 day period. So if it can make around 30 more million in America (100) it should do well cause I think it makes 80 million overseas. That's not counting DVD sales which will be high.

 

[tenor]

Even though I haven't seen it yet, I'll probably be one to purchase the DVD early on.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

one last try from my heart . . .

There is an old song that goes - garbage in, garbage out - which refers to one's spirituality. I believe that Jesus was right when He said that a corrupt/evil tree can only bring forth corrupt/evil fruit - and as someone once said - God is not in the fruit mixing business.

If you continue to entertain yourself with mythology, fables, allegory, witchcraft, magic, etc and see these kinds of things as "just for fun" or to find some kind of Godly allegory/imagery you are playing with fire. God is a jealous God. He does not want us sharing our minds and thoughts with things that are an abomination to Him because it rapes our spirits, our minds, and our souls and contaminates His Godliness within each believer.

Buying product, eating food, wearing clothing made by companies that may be inherrently "evil" does not destroy ones future. As Jesus said, do not be afraid of what is done to the body, but what can destroy the soul in hell.

A word to the "wise". God said that when you play with, take part in, enjoy what He considers evil, you will have no part in the Kingdom of God. His Words, not mine. Gal 5.