Nashville Church Fights $425,000 Property Tax Bill

[Robert Snow]

Property taxes are oppressive and immoral. No one should pay property taxes.

Well, as long as other profit-making businesses pay it; ministries that are profit-making should pay also.

 

[matt wade]

Property taxes are oppressive and immoral. No one should pay property taxes.

I agree that we shouldn't pay property taxes, but that's not the subject of this discussion.

 

[Salty]

Property taxes are oppressive and immoral. No one should pay property taxes.

(bold my emphasis)

Amen and amem :thumbs:

 

[Crucified in Christ]

I've had to deal with older members in a church that I have served who thought it was wrong for a singing group to sell cd's or the youth group to sell t-shirts in hall way of the church. When asked "why?" they would always say, "it's money chaning." This is a misnomer that has it's basis in ignorance. At some point in the past they heard some jack leg preach against money changing and bought the lie hook line and sinker. Money chaning is not about buying or selling things in the church building. Money chaning in the context of Jesus' day was the exchanging of outside currency into temple currency. Even that wasn't wrong except that they were ripping people off concerning the exchange rate and preventing gentiles from worshipping in the outer courts. Sorry, but having a SubWay in the gymn is not money changing.

Sag38-
I am not sure that I concur with you on your analysis of the passage in question or on your application. The changing of money for foreigners and the selling of sacrificial animals had long occurred, but not in the Courts of the Temple. Traditionally, these things had taken place at the base of the Mount of Olives. As the Chief Priests learned of the lucrative returns of the business, they happily moved it into the Court they cared little about- the Court of the Gentiles. This would allow the Temple to benefit (sounds familiar to me). Christ's problem with this is that they were using space dedicated to Him and His worship for their own self-serving ends.
When he called it a den of thieves, he was not referring to the Temple as a place of robbery, but as a place of hiding from the robbery; the den is the hide-out. This was a clear reference to the prophet Jeremiah (chapter 7). The leaders were living lives that were extremely displeasing to the Lord, but were running through the motions of the sacrificial system as if outward observances alone were able to absolve them from their guilt.
The point here is that many churches are exactly like the situation our Lord encountered. Their interest is in making money (maybe even for the church). They attempt to do this by bringing "profitable enterprises" into the church, caring less about love and mercy than profits. What is the spiritual purpose of having a Subway in your church? How does it benefit the entire fellowship? I could also decry charging for meals within the church in general. I can't stand any policy that might leave some people out when God's people gather. I comfort in the fact that the Apostle Paul couldn't stand it either.

 

[Crucified in Christ]

I forgot to answer the OP.

We have laws. Christians should be the very first to follow them when they do not contradict what we are instructed by the Lord. If a business for profit is to pay a tax, then they are to be paid. If a Church is operating in a way that classifies it as a business, it should pay all taxes due. I find no Scriptural alternative.

 

[sag38]

CinC, the buying and selling within the Temple was keeping innocent people from worship in addition to conducting a business of ripping people off. But, to equate the selling of T-shirts for the youth ministry,cd's from a visiting singing group or charging for a cup of coffee is a far cry from what was happening in the Court of Gentiles.

What is your definition of money changing? Many times what folks call money changing is selling something on the church grounds which is wrong. This in not money changing. It's one thing to have an opinion against selling meals on Wednesday nights but it's quite another to falsely use the Word of God to support that opinion.

 

[windcatcher]

Imo, this is a very complex issue: It is simple to say 'don't do it' and then one avoids the issue altogether: However, there are many other formats where tax exempt organizations use specific sales events as a fund raiser: Private and public school students & campus organizations sale cook books, magazine subscriptions, boxes of candies and cookies, hold bizarres, stage fairs entertainment and have raffles & havew car washes as a means of raising funds for charitable purposes or projects expenses necessary to cover the purposes and expenses of the organization... yet these things are not intended to intrude upon or replace the normal use of commerce or become business adventures. imo, if the church does sponsor a special presentation by a speaker or ministry or group which is not typically part of its funding and which depends on product sales to fund itself... such as World view Rallies .......then the event should neither be a replacement for the regular worship services and the promotions and sales of products should not occur during the services to distract from the message and its impact. Also, it should be clear to those who participate, what the monies receive do and donot fund.
One church I know sponsors a "parents night out" sitting service one Friday night in each month... where minors and infants within a certain age range are watched by volunteers of adult supervision and teens for an extrordinary nominal cost... particularly for large families... to give parents a chance to have a date w/o having to worry about their children and are they in safe hands w/ a sitter. Being able to have a Wednesday night fellowship supper preceeding the prayermeetings, Bible studies and youth groups helps to facilitate the worship, study and fellowship on a busy night during mid week of other schedules like work or school: It can hardly be called a 'business' adventure as its hours are very limited, the charges barely enough to cover expenses, and its services quite limited to those who plan a reservation ahead... that it could hardlly be called competitive to local businesses or increase their burden of taxes because of its tax exempt status becoming a 'subsidy' type cutting inot their profits. However.. it would seem... there is conceivably a line where a service to members becomes a business venture which is profitable, competitive, and either so open to the general public... or so favorable to a significant portion of a community as to intrude upon those which are not part of it... that it ceases to be a ministry and draws attention as a business capable of standing alone if separated from its origins. In our local area... long before Bingo halls were allowed, some people frequented the local Catholic parishes to play Bingo.. spend time w/ some friend, and gamble to win... knowing their profits were going to fund the Catholic Church and its charities. Some more liberal churches used to sponsor teen-age dances: Now some of this seems more to me like bringing the world into the church.. and loses its function to get the gospel into the world: The carnality of 'worldly pleasures' is so dramatically emphasized by such events as to separate them from the mission of the gospel.... no matter what good intentions or preventions may be imagined... that its ludicrous trying to defend them.

I think the factors which may cause a church to seriously consider commercial promotions as a real advantage... do have to be judged by the evidence of whether or not it does indeed contribute to the spreading of the gospel or the care of the flock: If it doesn't... then, imo, its wrong. So what does one do when faced w/ such a decision? ...The Bible presents a glimpse into how a solution to one problem may create a larger problem because of increased opportunity for such to become areas of corruption and deception: Beyond this... the only other evidence we have is to watch what others have tried... and see what has worked and why and what hasn't.... and to recongnize... that once a step is taken committing to a certain direction... what ever the consequences are or become... it may be harder to correct or amend if that step was the wrong one.

 

[Crucified in Christ]

CinC, the buying and selling within the Temple was keeping innocent people from worship in addition to conducting a business of ripping people off. But, to equate the selling of T-shirts for the youth ministry,cd's from a visiting singing group or charging for a cup of coffee is a far cry from what was happening in the Court of Gentiles.

What is your definition of money changing? Many times what folks call money changing is selling something on the church grounds which is wrong. This in not money changing. It's one thing to have an opinion against selling meals on Wednesday nights but it's quite another to falsely use the Word of God to support that opinion.

More to the point- the buying and selling in the Temple was keeping some people from being fully a part of what was going on in the Temple; the Temple was meant to be a House of Prayer for all the Nations, but the area that the "authorities" allowed for Gentiles was being obstructed by commercial considerations. Likewise, if the church has a policy that keeps people from being fully integrated into the fellowship because of commercial interests, how would this reflect the will of God? The Apostle Paul was angry with the Corinthians because the have-nots were not being shared with, but distinctions were made between those with means and those without.

Now if you had actually read what I wrote, then you would see that I argued that the Word of God argues against disenfranchising people from the fellowship over financial concerns. Do you argue that this is not clearly expressed? In the Old Testament? In the teachings of our Lord? By Paul? By James? I would argue that if believers are discouraged from being fully a part of the fellowship because of financial policies of the church, the Word of God absolutely argues against it.

It is Thanksgiving (and I am thankful for you and your love for Christ) so I will not be so unkind as to accuse you of falsely handling God's Word...I will continue with what I said before: If I understand your position, then I disagree with your interpretation of this passage.

 

[Timsings]

About the only time we have money-changing going on in our church halls are when the Girl Scout cookies come out. :smilewinkgrin:

Tim Reynolds

 

[mcdirector]

About the only time we have money-changing going on in our church halls are when the Girl Scout cookies come out. :smilewinkgrin:

Tim Reynolds

Boy Scout popcorn does a booming business too :thumbs: