Nativity Scenes and the Second Commandment

[tinytim]

And the way it took the place of God was to worship it, as God.

The calf didn't take the place of God, until they said it was God....

No one in their right mind beleives that a nativity scene is truly Jesus, Mary or Joseph.. (Mary and Joseph were'nt little people were they?)

The little plastic baby in the manger is not God... no one is worshipping it..
If they do, they are a fruitcake, and should be giftwrapped, and given to the mailman for a Christmas present!!!

 

[DHK]

And the way it took the place of God was to worship it, as God.

The calf didn't take the place of God, until they said it was God....

No one in their right mind beleives that a nativity scene is truly Jesus, Mary or Joseph.. (Mary and Joseph were'nt little people were they?)

The little plastic baby in the manger is not God... no one is worshipping it..
If they do, they are a fruitcake, and should be giftwrapped, and given to the mailman for a Christmas present!!!

You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to call people fruticakes.
Ask any child who the babe in the manger is and they will respond "Jesus." It is obvious then, that the "babe" in the manger is a representation, an icon of Jesus who is God. That is exactly what is forbidden in the Ten Commandments--not just the worshipping of such, but also the very making of the image itself. "Thou shalt not make... It is a very clear statement. How can one avoid it?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

There is the entire verse. I don't ignore any part of it. I only quoted it in part to save space. The Israelites made an image of a calf. They could have made an image of a whale (under the sea), or the sun (in the heaven above). Any image of God is wrong. Any image that takes the place of God is wrong. Both are wrong. Not only the worship of Baal (another god) was wrong, but an image of Israel's God was wrong. God condemned them both. Making any image of God was absolutely wrong.

Thanks for your clarification. I understand that your eisegesis is not with the word "or" but with adding to scripture the phrase (of God) several times to the verse to fit your pretext. You read it as:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (of God), or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above (of God), or that is in the earth beneath (of God), or that is in the water under the earth (of God):

Do you believe
1) there are 11 commandments? (verse 3 is commandment 1, verse 4 is commandment 2 and 5,6 is commandment 3) or
2) the Jewish interpretation of the 10? (verse 2 is commandment 1 and verse 3-6 is commandment 2)
3) the Catholic interpretation of the 10? (verse 2-6 is commandment 1)

Because you don't seem to follow the traditional protestant division of the 10 where verse 3 is commandment 1 and verse 4-6 is commandment 2.

 

[DHK]

Thanks for your clarification. I understand that your eisegesis is not with the word "or" but with adding to scripture the phrase (of God) several times to the verse to fit your pretext. You read it as:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (of God), or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above (of God), or that is in the earth beneath (of God), or that is in the water under the earth (of God):

I added (of God) parenthetically for your (and others) understanding. Understand the context. The context is that you shall not make any graven image of God. An image can be a picture. They didn't have camera's in Moses' day. God was not prohibiting taking a picture of your child or family. But he was prohibiting a picture of God himself, including the second person of the trinity--Christ. It is evident that "the image and likeness thereof" refers to God. The Israelites were commanded to make all kinds of images for the Tabernacle, and later for the Temple. But none of those images were of God. They represented other things. There was no image that represented God himself. Please understand the context in these first few verses of the Ten Commandments.

I was a Catholic for 20 years. As a Catholic I learned that the first three related to God and man, and that the last seven related to man and man. The 10th command was divided into 9 and 10: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, and 10, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.
This left room in the first few verses to completely omit the command concerning the making of graven images and bowing down to them (which the Catholic Church practices all the time).

When I got saved, I saw that the Ten Commandments were different than what I had learned as a Catholic and I saw the reason why. Catholics practice idolatry. Are Christians going to do the same thing--make graven images like the Catholics do? I repented of that long ago.
There is a good reason why the one command of "Thou shalt not covet" had to be divided into two commands.
There are only Ten Commandments. And they are not the RCC version.

 

[annsni]

The only problem I have is that (of God) is not there. That's adding to the Word of God, IMO. It does NOT say to not make a graven image of anything on the earth of God - but to not make any graven image. There's a big difference there.

 

[J.D.]

Dty 4:15"Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage. 20 But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be His people, an inheritance, as you are this day. 21 Furthermore the Lord was angry with me for your sakes, and swore that I would not cross over the Jordan, and that I would not enter the good land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. 22 But I must die in this land, I must not cross over the Jordan; but you shall cross over and possess that good land. 23 Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the Lord your God has forbidden you. 24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.25 "When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the Lord your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice 31 (for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

 

[J.D.]

Rom 1:23 "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

 

[menageriekeeper]

Thank you, JD. Your scriptures shed much needed light on the subject. We aren't to make images and worship them. Clear as a bell. Doesn't matter what the image is of, you aren't to worship it as though it were God or instead of God. God doesn't appreciate such. Also clear.

A child saying that the baby in the manger is "Jesus" is not expressing worship. He is merely expressing in his limited vocabulary his knowledge of the story of Christ's birth. You know the whole "when I was a child I spake as a child" thing. To believe that this amounts to idol worship by a child is just a little over the top.

 

[Dale-c]

Excellent posts JD.
I hadn't even thought of Romans 1, even though I am quite familiar with the passage.

 

[Aaron]

Rom 1:23 "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Excellent. This is the point being missed. It's not that folks are bowing down and worshipping the image, it brings their imagining of God down to something they can fully comprehend. In that sense, it robs God of His glory.

 

[Alcott]

Then God robbed himself of his glory by making himself a baby, a boy, and a man. And Jesus is scripturally called the "image of of the invisible God" [Colossians 1:15], a violation of making God into any image.

 

[ShagNappy]

"Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, "

So, according to some folks statements in this thread, God is guilty of idolatry. We were made in His image. Going by the anti-nativity crowds interpretation, clearly the 4th commandment was broken.

 

[J.D.]

Then God robbed himself of his glory by making himself a baby, a boy, and a man. And Jesus is scripturally called the "image of of the invisible God" [Colossians 1:15], a violation of making God into any image.

Jesus was the image of the Father in character. It doesn't refer to his physical body.

 

[J.D.]

"Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, "

So, according to some folks statements in this thread, God is guilty of idolatry. We were made in His image. Going by the anti-nativity crowds interpretation, clearly the 4th commandment was broken.

This does not refer to the physical body. Man is a rational, moral, and spiritual being. In that he bears the image of God, which was marred by the fall.

 

[Alcott]

Jesus was the image of the Father in character.

And does the commandment being discussed here not say "...not make any image or any likeness..."?

 

[J.D.]

Thank you, JD. Your scriptures shed much needed light on the subject. We aren't to make images and worship them. Clear as a bell. Doesn't matter what the image is of, you aren't to worship it as though it were God or instead of God. God doesn't appreciate such. Also clear.

A child saying that the baby in the manger is "Jesus" is not expressing worship. He is merely expressing in his limited vocabulary his knowledge of the story of Christ's birth. You know the whole "when I was a child I spake as a child" thing. To believe that this amounts to idol worship by a child is just a little over the top.

In the long run, it doesn't bother me much if Christians have a nativity scene or "pictures" of Jesus and such. But when conversations begin about such things, it bothers me when Christians don't seem to be sensitive to the scriptures.

I struggle myself to know how to obey the second commandment. I have pictures and mirrors around my house, which the Amish say is forbidden. Are they right? I don't know, but I don't think so, especially mirrors.

Some people think "I can ignore it because it's law and I'm under grace". Okay, but I wouldn't brush off God's commandments without trying to get a clear understanding as to why I should disregard it. He seems to be VERY serious about it to me.

And beyond the letter of law, I think the spirit of the law tells us that there is a real danger in our inclination to reduce things Holy down to material/profane things like carvings or pictures. I've often wondered what God's reason is for being so adamant about not allowing images. That's why we must not rely on our own understanding. He said to obey his commandments. There was no conditional "if you understand them". So we continue to look to Him for understanding, don't we?

 

[J.D.]

And does the commandment being discussed here not say "...not make any image or any likeness..."?

If this is an intentional absurdity, please go ahead and make your point because I'm not getting it. But if that's you're actual argument, please think about how irrational it is.

 

[DHK]

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The context of the Ten Commandments is set right at the very beginning. Thou shalt not make any graven images...(of God). Why is it of God. Because it is evident from verse three that He is talking of Himself. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. The context is self-evident. I don't know how anyone can miss this. And how can you miss this when you take into consideration all the images that God did command them to make that went into the Tabernacle: the table of shewbread, the cherubim over the altar, the golden candlestick, etc. There were many images. God commanded them to make them. God doesn't go against His Word. He is not inconsistent. The graven images of the Ten Commandments were images of Himself, images of God, or images of any god.
The command that followed dealt with worship.
First it was wrong to make the image.
Second it was wrong to worship the image. The excuse that you don't worship the image does not excuse you from making the image in the first place. One right does not negate a wrong. The Muslim thinks that God takes all our sins and all our good works and puts them on a balance and weighs them. Does the good outweigh the bad? Christianity doesn't teach that. Sin is sin. And no amount of good and right the wrong that has already been done.
To say that you don't worship is only a cop-out.
The damage has already been done.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And does the commandment being discussed here not say "...not make any image or any likeness..."?

The command is for man not to make any images or likenesses. God can make anything He wants. He owns the building material.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In the long run, it doesn't bother me much if Christians have a nativity scene or "pictures" of Jesus and such. But when conversations begin about such things, it bothers me when Christians don't seem to be sensitive to the scriptures.

I struggle myself to know how to obey the second commandment. I have pictures and mirrors around my house, which the Amish say is forbidden. Are they right? I don't know, but I don't think so, especially mirrors.

Some people think "I can ignore it because it's law and I'm under grace". Okay, but I wouldn't brush off God's commandments without trying to get a clear understanding as to why I should disregard it. He seems to be VERY serious about it to me.

And beyond the letter of law, I think the spirit of the law tells us that there is a real danger in our inclination to reduce things Holy down to material/profane things like carvings or pictures. I've often wondered what God's reason is for being so adamant about not allowing images. That's why we must not rely on our own understanding. He said to obey his commandments. There was no conditional "if you understand them". So we continue to look to Him for understanding, don't we?

A mirror is not an image, it is just glass that shows a reflection of the one who stands in front of it. Once that perrson moves away, the reflection is no longer there.