Nativity Scenes and the Second Commandment

[Dale-c]

Are you, by any chance, a lawyer? You're very good at evading questions. [/..QUOTE]
No, not a lawyer, just learned a lot from people on here

now that I have answered your question,would you please answer mine?
Do you think that the people thought that the golden calf was actually a god or that it was a representation?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I think they thought it was really a god. After all, the people in the land they just left all worshipped gods made of gold, silver, wood, etc.

Like I said before, I like pictures of my children, but I actually love my children. The pictures are just to remind me of them.

The nativity scene on my front lawn does do some good. It is a silent witness, to all who pass by, as far as what this season is all about...

 

[Dale-c]

Just let me clarify this:
They thought they were brought out of the land of Egypt by their earrings?
Which was after the fact made into a calf?

I don't think they were that stupid.

And who was the LORD they were talking about?

 

[faith.hope.love]

That is a good question and I have noticed that many people do that that.
As I have studied this issue, I have seen several people who say they do that.

I don't have a dogmatic approach to that one.
It is still using imaging in a religious context but I can't say that a picture of a historical character is inherently idolatrous.

I don't see any need whatsoever to have one? Why not remove all doubt and get rid of it. What good do they do?


So, I don't know for sure. but I would not have one.

That is what is going on here... I figured I would just have one with an empty manger, but then what does that do?? I wanted one instead of a Christmas tree (I have decided against Christmas trees - and other pagan practices - this year) and wanted a nativity scene instead for the kids... I figured I could teach them that way, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. Also, I must admit that I wanted it because my husband and I grew up celebrating Christmas the traditional way and it seems strange not to have anything at all.

On another forum I belong to someone said that once Christ died on the cross he fullfilled the laws of the old testament and that we now have a new covenant... what do you feel about this? The term "legalism" is used a lot in regards to these types of isssues...

 

[Dale-c]

On another forum I belong to someone said that once Christ died on the cross he fullfilled the laws of the old testament and that we now have a new covenant... what do you feel about this?

Yes, we do have a new covenant but that does not mean that we can now sin.
Some take it to mean that the OT is of no use and we should only use the New Testament today.
That is totally false.
While we no longer need to sacrifice and we can now do certain things, the moral law of God has not changed.

 

[Dale-c]

Also, I must admit that I wanted it because my husband and I grew up celebrating Christmas the traditional way and it seems strange not to have anything at all.

I certainly understand that. I actually grew up with no Christmas tree in our home but we did have a nativity scene.
NOw I am somewhat indifferent about the tree and opposed to the nativity scene.
When you start realizing the idolatry of our society it really starts to bring the idolatry of the people mentioned in the Bible to a whole new understanding.

 

[DHK]

I think they thought it was really a god. After all, the people in the land they just left all worshipped gods made of gold, silver, wood, etc.

Think it out to its next logical step. "It was really a god." That is true, but what do you mean by that statement? No Hindu believes that actual wood and stone "gods"
(idols) of Ram, Vishnu, Ganesh, Shiva, Krishna, etc. are their "gods." The god is the spirit behind or living in that piece of wood, or what that wood represents. The same is true with the golden calf. Give these people credit for some intelligence. They do believe in spirits. But the wooden idols represent the spirit gods that they believe. As we would believe: "Behind every idol is a demon." In reality it becomes demon worship.

With the Israelites they had waited so long for Moses and Moses's explanation of who Jehovah was that they built their own representation of Jehovah. They had not stopped believing in Jehovah. In fact they held a feast to Him.
They broke two commandments:
1. They made a graven image unto him.
2. They bowed down and worshiped it.

In a nativity scene, the "baby Jesus" is still a graven image of God, even if you do not bow down and worship it. You still have broken one of the above commands.

 

[faith.hope.love]

Yes, we do have a new covenant but that does not mean that we can now sin.
Some take it to mean that the OT is of no use and we should only use the New Testament today.
That is totally false.
While we no longer need to sacrifice and we can now do certain things, the moral law of God has not changed.

How do we know which commandments still apply and which ones do not?

 

[faith.hope.love]

...In a nativity scene, the "baby Jesus" is still a graven image of God, even if you do not bow down and worship it. You still have broken one of the above commands.

I agree with this statement... my understanding is that we should not bow down to and worship any graven image and also that we should not make any graven images of God. How do you feel about the ones with the empty mangers? Seems a little strange still... why would I then want graven images of Mary and Joseph and the wise men that didn't show up until later?

 

[DHK]

Set up a "Christmas tree" in some parts of India and many of the Hindus would not be adverse to come and put their offering underneath your idol where you also have put your "offerings." That is what they think; it is their mindset, and the first thing that would come into their mind once they see that decorated tree with those "gifts" being "offered" to it.

 

[DHK]

I agree with this statement... my understanding is that we should not bow down to and worship any graven image and also that we should not make any graven images of God. How do you feel about the ones with the empty mangers? Seems a little strange still... why would I then want graven images of Mary and Joseph and the wise men that didn't show up until later?

I personally do not have a nativity scene, and do not for some of the reasons that you and Dale have posted. I do believe there is a certain amount of soul liberty on the issue, especially where one cannot point to "an image of God." If the manger scene would cause someone to think in their minds that that is Jesus, and therefore it is still a representation of Jesus, then it is better not to have it. The principle here is one of "offence."

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

 

[Dale-c]

How do we know which commandments still apply and which ones do not?

This is a much debated topic but I believe as a general rule, ceremonial law no longer applies. Dietary laws no longer apply.

There is discussion as to certain "gray areas" as to what certain things fall under.
Idols are obviously part of the eternal moral law.
The sabbath, I am not completely sure.
Many believe that we no longer need to give one day in seven to God, I think we still do, though I am not sure we are bound to all the ceremony attached to it in the OT.
that is something I am still studying myself.

 

[Alcott]

How do we know which commandments still apply and which ones do not?

I don't see that there could be a better system than simply going by the New Testament. If it's there in the NT, it is applicable; if it ain't, it ain't.

 

[tinytim]

Think it out to its next logical step. "It was really a god." That is true, but what do you mean by that statement? No Hindu believes that actual wood and stone "gods"
(idols) of Ram, Vishnu, Ganesh, Shiva, Krishna, etc. are their "gods." The god is the spirit behind or living in that piece of wood, or what that wood represents. The same is true with the golden calf. Give these people credit for some intelligence. They do believe in spirits. But the wooden idols represent the spirit gods that they believe. As we would believe: "Behind every idol is a demon." In reality it becomes demon worship.

With the Israelites they had waited so long for Moses and Moses's explanation of who Jehovah was that they built their own representation of Jehovah. They had not stopped believing in Jehovah. In fact they held a feast to Him.
They broke two commandments:
1. They made a graven image unto him.
2. They bowed down and worshiped it.

In a nativity scene, the "baby Jesus" is still a graven image of God, even if you do not bow down and worship it. You still have broken one of the above commands.

I understand why a baby doll would represent baby Jesus... both look like babies...

But if the calf (and I believe it represented Apis an egyptian god) represented Jehovah... why?

What reason would they have for making a statue of a cow to represent Jehovah?

Did they actually think God looked like a cow?

 

[DHK]

I don't see that there could be a better system than simply going by the New Testament. If it's there in the NT, it is applicable; if it ain't, it ain't.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[Alcott]

And that's all there is to it, little child?

 

[DHK]

I understand why a baby doll would represent baby Jesus... both look like babies...

But if the calf (and I believe it represented Apis an egyptian god) represented Jehovah... why?

What reason would they have for making a statue of a cow to represent Jehovah?

Did they actually think God looked like a cow?

Remember these were Israelites. They had never left their faith, their belief in Jehovah. They had witnessed the power of Jehovah through the ten plagues and had not been touched by them. All through the tremendous persecution they went through by the Pharaohs of Egypt they never lost their faith in Jehovah. What would make them lose their faith now?

The reason for a representation now? They had been a long time in Egypt and there were some Egyptians that had come out with them. Even if one person grumbles that grumble spreads like wildfire. They were tired and discontented. They had waited a long time now for Moses to come down from the Mount. They had a sin nature and they gave into it.

There are many examples of the same thing happening in the Book of Judges. Time and time again the nation of Israel turned away from Jehovah and worshiped other gods such as Baal. Although Baal was another god, they never lost complete faith in Jehovah. They never stopped believing Him. They just displaced Him from the throne of their hearts, much like we do when we go after money, sports, fame, popularity, or some other "god" rather than Christ as our one and only desire.

 

[faith.hope.love]

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

LOL, I looked up the definition of an idol and even the dictionary's have different definitions.

Merriam-Webster: 1: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a: a likeness of something bobsolete : pretender, impostor
3: a form or appearance visible but without substance <an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol — P. B. Shelley>
4: an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>; also : ideal 2
5: a false conception : fallacy

American Heritage Dictionary:
NOUN:
An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.

 

[tinytim]

LOL, I looked up the definition of an idol and even the dictionary's have different definitions.

Merriam-Webster: 1: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a: a likeness of something bobsolete : pretender, impostor
3: a form or appearance visible but without substance <an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol — P. B. Shelley>
4: an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>; also : ideal 2
5: a false conception : fallacy

American Heritage Dictionary:
NOUN:
An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.

What my picture wasn't there?:laugh:

:tonofbricks:

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[rbell]

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Once again (I feel like a broken record) the idol is worshipped. No one is worshipping a nativity scene.

:BangHead: