Nativity Scenes

Excellent post Mr. Lamb. I think what you are hitting on is part of the reason this stuff shouldn't be made. People are getting bad theology or bad Biblical history from the making of nativity scenes, Jesus dolls, portraits or moving pictures such as The Passion of the Christ. To some or many, the images wind up trumping the Word of God in their inaccurate portrayal of Biblical events.

 

If your interpritation that this verse means no graven inmages not just to worship but none. Then please square it with this verse.

Clearly the verses you quoted saying not to make graven images are saying not to worship graven images. Otherwise God told Moses to break a commandment.

 

Our Church has a Nativity Scene in a public park as part of the park districts Festival of Lights. This is the second year we have entered, and last year we won thrid place. Now for some shameless promotion. If you would like to vote for us to win this year just go to http://www.rugb.org/_sgg/m5_1.htm and follow the links so you can vote for us.


Bill

 

True, and the same can be said of the ark of the covenant for there were graven images on it. However, one is authorized and the other is not and there is no authorization for creating an image of the Godhead. The verse to me, that gives more power to the nativity issue is Acts 17:29. We ought not think that the Godhead is to be graven by art and man's device. We should not then take a person of the Godhead, Jesus Christ, and use art to make a picture of Him to put on a wall, or make moving pictures of Him (ie Passion of the Christ), or make a ceramic, plastic or other version of Him as a baby to put into a nativity scene.

 

I read that scripture as saying that we should not think that GOD is made by human hands. We should not worship things that humans make. I have never met anybody that thinks their nativity is really God and falls on their face to worship it.

But there are religions that worship statues made by human hands and that is what this verse is talking about. It is not saying do not make statues, movies or pictures. It is saying do not worship those things. Do not think that the things we make (statues, pictures, movies) are God.

 

If you follow this command as you are claiming it should be followed, then you would absolutely never draw a picture, take a photograph, download a map, among many other things wherein any likeness of anything is made. Yes or No--do you fully obey this command? [ keeping in mind that you said it is not at all about worshipping them, but making them, and that only].

 

Is falling down on your face an exclusive example of worship? Is not worship the adoration of the object of worship? When one is thinking on God and His sacrifice this is worship. When one ceases to think on the invisible and replaces it with the visible and adores the little baby Jesus in the nativity or cries at seeing Jim Caviezel raised up on a cross, then their adoration and worship is being applied to an artistic representation of a person of the Godhead. They are at this point replacing the true God with an artificial god.

A major religion that worships statues is the Roman Catholic Church. It is no small coincidence that Rome brought us The Passion of the Christ and it is Rome that brought us nativity scenes. It seems to me that some (perhaps many) Baptists are getting a bit cozy with the whore.

 

No.




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How you can even compare Jesus, Mary, or Joseph to the Babylon whore is beyond me!

Rome didn't bring us the nativity scene. Jesus did when He was born in a manger...

 

I am not comparing Jesus, Mary or Joseph to the Babylon whore. I am saying that the act of engraving images representing these characters is not a Baptist nor Christian creation.

True, they are not responsible for the actual nativity however, that is not what we are discussing. Depicting the nativity of Jesus Christ through art and man's device is a Roman Catholic tradition.

 

I personaly can diferentiate between the art itself and what the art reminds me of. I can look at a painting of Jesus, have it stir emotions and yet not actualy worship the canvase and oil paint.

I think most people are in this boat including you. When you look on a sunset do you not ponder how great God is. When you look into the night sky do you not think about how big God is. When you look at a new baby do you not think about the miricals of God. Yet you do not worship sunsets, stars and babies.

Actually Mel Gibson is no friend of the Roman Catholic church. He is part of a break off group.

I believe the RCs go to far and show worship to their statues. They would disagre. However there are religions that believe that the statue IS GOD. Catholics do not come even close to this. Either way this is what the verse is talking about believing that you can form God with your own hands.

 

Dont we use bread and grape product to represent Christ?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcott
If you follow this command as you are claiming it should be followed, then you would absolutely never draw a picture, take a photograph, download a map, among many other things wherein any likeness of anything is made. Yes or No--do you fully obey this command? [ keeping in mind that you said it is not at all about worshipping them, but making them, and that only].[/quote]

Why not? And you expect-- or else condemn-- everybody else to fully obey this command?




*******[/quote]

 

You are certainly correct in that these works of art stir emotions. They stir it to such an extent that the viewer does not critically evaluate what they are looking at as the emotion clouds their objectivity. One of the most famous pictures of "Jesus" is the San Damiano Crucifix. This crucifix painting was worshipped by the catholic monk, St. Francis of Assisi. Apparently, this monk and the millions of Catholics since his time (except for the Catholic nuns that hid this painting for hundreds of years) have missed out on the phallic symbol that rests on the abdomen of the "Jesus" figure. It's no small wonder that this same monk is the one often cited as being the first to institute a live nativity scene.

As beautiful as your examples are, all of the examples you cited are representations of the creation of the Godhead but never should be confused as being representations of the Godhead.

 

Per his command we do. However, these elements are not made up of gold, silver, stone nor are they made by art and man's device.

 

I suppose you would condemn me too...
for we used the prayer of St. Francis of Assisi in our association's Pastors Christmas dinner last Friday...
I also have this in my Office at church.

It is really a prayer we should all pray:
But I forgot I am on Baptist Board...
If God granted it, we would not have any fun debating.
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

 

Not everything that the Roman Catholic church has done is to be condemned. We should be able to sift the wheat from the chaff. I would hate to have to reject liturgical worship, for example, just because the Catholics "invented" it. In the church I served as pastor, I wore a pulpit robe, we lit candles on the "altar" (now I agree that is a misnomer, but never persuaded our people to stop using the term), and we followed a pattern not altogether unlike Catholic worship. I go with the insight of the 2nd Century Christian Justin Martyr, who said, "Whatever has been uttered aright in any place belongs to us Christians."

 

This may be a problem you have. I dont think most people let their emotions take that much control. Are you saying that you would not have the ability to look at a painting, enjoy it, and also have the presense of mind to research and believe correct doctrine.

Pictures are not the only art to stir emotions. Words stir emotions also, even the words in the Bible. Pictures a way humans communicate with each other along with words. Pictures can hold incorrect information and so can words. Just because somebody paints a picture that has wrong information does not mean you can not look at any pictures. Just as if somebody writes a book containing wrong information does not mean you can not read any book.

 

Are you saying God gives us a command and then commands us to break it?

I dont remember you saying what the material of the reprisentation had to be. Where did it say that only gold, silver, and stone are banned?

If bread is not made by man's device, how is it made? The bread we use in my church is make in one of the sisters ovens by her hand?

 

I do not hold the office of condemning anyone. I have a Baptist hymnbook that contains a song written by this monk (All Creatures of Our God and King). It's a beautiful song and if there is bad theology in it, I have yet to identify it. This, nor the prayer you cited, changes that he made at least two poor choices in regards to art.