Natural Disasters and the Will of God

[Iconoclast]

Gina B,

While you're sitting here debating a naturally occurring storm, perfectly normal in nature,

The Op is about storms and God's will. That is what the op is about.

do you have a CLUE about the humans here who are hurting kids? The number of kids abused, murdered, legally kidnapped by the corrupt government, and you're worried about whether or not a TORNADO is a sign? Seriously?

This might be the subject of another thread....but not this one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

of course the Tornado in Ok was under the sovereign control of God

,

In what way was it under His sovereign control exactly?
1] Do you mean the time it occured?

2]The path of the storm?

3] The purpose of the storm?
or do you believe this:

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

for he allowed the storm to cause it to occur,

In what way did he allow it???? as a spectator who could do something but chose not to?

but are you saying that God directly ordered it to strike and kill those children?

To make any such statement would require direct revelation that is not happening today as we have here:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


or when God sent the flood on the world of the ungodly, men woman and children.......
Did God send the Flood?

or was it Satan as some would allege?

or was it Mother Nature???? as the weathermen want to tell us?

 

[gb93433]

It rains on the just and unjust. The rain beat on the house built on the sand and the house built on the rock.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Iconoclast

I fail to see why you argue with anyone. It is clear that Yeshua was forced to write what he did. Yeshua did not choose to write an opinion that is different from yours but by the sovereign act of God Yeshua wrote what he wrote. Thus if what Yeshua wrote was the divine act of God, then why are you arguing with him? You are arguing against someone that was moved by God to say what he said, isn't that kind of dangerous?

Unless of course you believe that God decreed debates among those He knows result in disagreement.

Hopefully someday those that apply Calvinism to the weather will see the logical fallacies of the conclusions in such an erroneous belief system.

Oops, I forgot to cut and paste a doctrinal statement from another man's work to support my argument. But I was ordained to do that so it's not my fault.

 

[blackbird]

The reason there are natural disasters is that this is a fallen world, and God has permitted it to remain so.

One thing that has always troubled me is, why does God not intervene more often.

I like to call your comment---"Creation in an Uproar"---with emphasis placed on Romans 8 and the truth that all of creation "groans"--the Earth with its tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc is "earnestly desireing" to be made new

Naturally---some people will say that the tornado was God's judgement on wickedness---I don't buy that fallacy---the tornado was part of a fallen world---and people happened in its path----if that tornado would have happened along---lets say----500 years ago--no one would have ever known.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1

,

In what way was it under His sovereign control exactly?
1] Do you mean the time it occured?

2]The path of the storm?

3] The purpose of the storm?
or do you believe this:

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )


In what way did he allow it???? as a spectator who could do something but chose not to?



To make any such statement would require direct revelation that is not happening today as we have here:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


or when God sent the flood on the world of the ungodly, men woman and children.......
Did God send the Flood?

or was it Satan as some would allege?

or was it Mother Nature???? as the weathermen want to tell us?

believe that it was anatural result of condition in the stmosphere that God permitted to happen, as he allows things to occur that law of physics such as gravity, or storms made by excessive heat and conditions!

God permitted the natural order to happen as He created it to go when certain conditions are met, but that he also had provided for the relief and help even now coming into that area, and His Church is mobolizing to respond as he ordered us too!

 

[MB]

I would appreciate learning and knowing how everyone "feels" regarding natural disasters and the "will of God". What are your thoughts?

I read a lot of stuff on the net about God's judgements yet even in scripture it seems the righteous are spared and even the not so righteous. Lot was spared and his family though in my humbled opinion Lot wasn't all that righteous but he did know God. This must have made Lot righteous inspite of his actions.
Take Oklahoma right in the middle of the Bible belt. There are those right now saying that tornadeo was God's judgement on Moore Okla.

I believe God is better than that He does not punish the righteous just because they are in his way of judging the unrighteous.
MB

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I like to call your comment---"Creation in an Uproar"---with emphasis placed on Romans 8 and the truth that all of creation "groans"--the Earth with its tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc is "earnestly desireing" to be made new

Naturally---some people will say that the tornado was God's judgement on wickedness---I don't buy that fallacy---the tornado was part of a fallen world---and people happened in its path----if that tornado would have happened along---lets say----500 years ago--no one would have ever known.

That's a good post. I agree with what you said.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ach

I fail to see why you argue with anyone.

There was no arguing here...he asked for clarification of something I posted.

It is clear that Yeshua was forced to write what he did.

It would seem as if you are attempting to be humorous with this but I do note joke about truth.

Yeshua did not choose to write an opinion that is different from yours but by the sovereign act of God Yeshua wrote what he wrote.

Looks like he asked a question.

Thus if what Yeshua wrote was the divine act of God,

A divine act of God would be...when God himself does something.
That someone lives another day and is able to post.....even those who oppose truth ,is only God's mercy.

then why are you arguing with him? You are arguing against someone that was moved by God to say what he said, isn't that kind of dangerous?

If this is an example of your thinking and worldview it now helps me understand why you post what you do.

Unless of course you believe that God decreed debates among those He knows result in disagreement.

I believe the bible when it says this:
17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There are many who oppose themselves in opposing the truth of God.I see this verse on display in here. God in fact says it must be this way:thumbsup:

Hopefully someday those that apply Calvinism to the weather will see the logical fallacies of the conclusions in such an erroneous belief system.

Calvinists having a correct view of life do not view God as the god of deism.
He did not just wind up the clock at creation,and "let it run down" and outside of His control at all.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

God is involved in sustaining every atom, molecule,particle, and all that concerns life and death. I do not believe that this is even a valid question especially among professed Christians.

Oops, I forgot to cut and paste a doctrinal statement from another man's work to support my argument.

Well by all means try your best to remember to cut and paste a good link,or a good article from so learned person,because what you have been posting is not "getting it done"....that's for sure:thumbsup:

But I was ordained to do that so it's not my fault.

The fact that you have posted in such a sad way was indeed ordained by God.You are fully responsible however, even when you take the truth of God in vain.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1
You said:

believe that it was anatural result of condition in the stmosphere that God permitted to happen, as he allows things to occur that law of physics such as gravity, or storms made by excessive heat and conditions!

God permitted the natural order to happen as He created it to go when certain conditions are met,

But i asked you-

In what way was it under His sovereign control exactly?
1] Do you mean the time it occured?

2]The path of the storm?

3] The purpose of the storm?

In what way did he allow it???? as a spectator who could do something but chose not to?



To make any such statement would require direct revelation that is not happening today as we have here:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


or when God sent the flood on the world of the ungodly, men woman and children.......
Did God send the Flood?

or was it Satan as some would allege?

or was it Mother Nature???? as the weathermen want to tell us?


Your answer so far is:
1] a natural storm in the stratosphere.......So likewise...was the flood also a "natural storm" in the stratosphere?...and God permitted it to happen...or Did God declare:
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Was the flood.....rain....under God's control...or he just knew it would happen and watched it take place????


You asked me id God target people with this tornado,specifically with this tornado. i said we cannot know but by special and direct revelation....

but then i asked you; when we have this special revelation:

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Here God had them destroy these people...even infants and nursing children.
If God has men use a sword, or If God sends a tsunami, or tornado or earthquake.....even if Satan is allowed to do it.....can God not do what he wants to do?
The God of Jn 3:16 also said this-

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

you asked a question to clarify...I also ask you a few questions to have you clarify your thoughts here.

 

[Iconoclast]

blackbird

Naturally---some people will say that the tornado was God's judgement on wickedness---I don't buy that fallacy-

Was the flood the judgement of God upon the world of the ungodly,or a fallacy?

the verses in Amos 4.....the drought, the famine, under God's control....or is that also a fallacy? When God keeps asking them....and yet you have not returned to me
Clearly....God was controlling the weather to get the peoples attention....

He expected them to connect the dots- this is no fallacy.
so I do not understand how you would deny this...at all???

O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord God.

6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.

--the tornado was part of a fallen world---and people happened in its path----if that tornado would have happened along---lets say----500 years ago--no one would have ever known.

Are you saying Divine providence does not exist? I am not sure how you would defend this idea scripturally.

 

[Iconoclast]

I read a lot of stuff on the net about God's judgements yet even in scripture it seems the righteous are spared and even the not so righteous. Lot was spared and his family though in my humbled opinion Lot wasn't all that righteous but he did know God. This must have made Lot righteous inspite of his actions.
Take Oklahoma right in the middle of the Bible belt. There are those right now saying that tornadeo was God's judgement on Moore Okla.

I believe God is better than that He does not punish the righteous just because they are in his way of judging the unrighteous.
MB

Here is another interesting portion of scripture;
12 The word of the Lord came again to me, saying,

13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ach

Scripture and verse that shows natural events are always under God's control.

I have offered several portions of scripture that show a direct relationship of God with His creation.God is in total control of all things.
You cannot show any verse where God steps off His throne and is not in complete control of everything.
His eternal purpose is being fulfilled by every means He has wisely chosen to employ.

8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:


Napoleon loses because of snowflakes falling in the severe Russian winter...by God's design...

If that were true, they would not be called "natural".

Ludicrous....so if the Willard Scott, or Al Roker says - mother nature sent a blizzard...that makes it true?

Just because God permits it, doesn't mean He is controlling it.

God is in control at all times.he uses whatever means he desires;
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me;

In Job is one example of the permissive will of God.

"And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord."

God allowed what Satan did to Job, but did not control what he did to Job. God established boundaries of what Satan was allowed to do, but did not control what Satan did within the boundaries he was given.

So what....the boundaries were the control, and furthermore we only know what is revealed....

When God restrained Abimelech;
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

We are told God restrained him, yet it is not revealed by what means, before God speaks to him in this dream. That is God's concern....he says he did it, but not exactly how.

The logical conclusion of that type of reasoning is that God is also the author of sin.

Only non cals come to this sinful idea...this shows a lack of understanding.

If the Bible says that God can not look upon sin (Habakkuk 1:13) then it naturally follows that sin operates independent of God.

This flawed carnal reasoning is what gets you into trouble..you take a good verse then add wrong carnal ideas.

The sovereignty of God require that He is not in contact with things that are cursed.

Wrong Jesus came into direct contact with the cursed creation and fallen men to accomplish redemption for the elect.You could not be more wrong.

Sin has cursed humanity and all of creation. Gen 3:17. And thus God has permitted the earth and humanity to run their course in the direction that sin pushes it.

Sin does not rule and reign independant over God,or God's control.....not even close.

 

[Grasshopper]

http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-g...-and-the-mystery-of-suffering-and-sovereignty

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-g...-and-the-mystery-of-suffering-and-sovereignty

Great article....very well written and right on target.Thanks for sharing it.:wavey:

 

[DrJamesAch]

Post 31

Was the flood the judgement of God upon the world of the ungodly,or a fallacy?

the verses in Amos 4.....the drought, the famine, under God's control....or is that also a fallacy? When God keeps asking them....and yet you have not returned to me
Clearly....God was controlling the weather to get the peoples attention...

.

The flood was preceded by 120 years of warning (2 Peter 2:5, Matt 24:37, Heb 11:7, Gen 6:3). Moreover, the Genesis flood was destroy ALL FLESH. (Gen 6:17). The flood was a specific warning where they were told that it was judgment. If you are relying on Genesis 6 and Amos, then where is the warning to Oklahoma citizens? Where is they "I will do this if you don't do that"?

Was God judging Job? NO, it was permitted as a test to prove to Satan that Job's faith would stand up under Satan's scrutiny.

He expected them to connect the dots- this is no fallacy.
so I do not understand how you would deny this...at all???

Yet in Calvinist theology, grace is supposed to be irresistible, so why would God need to get anyone's attention? God made it clear in Romans 1:17-20 that God has already given enough for people to have "attention" to God doesn't need a storm to get anyone's attention.

Furthermore, if there were any in the storm who were elect, they would be saved anyway, and those who are not elect, would not be saved. Why would God send a storm to get the attention of anyone who is not going to be saved anyway? And contrawise, when has God ever used a storm to get the attention of a person elected to salvation?

You said that God, "expected them to connect the dots". But they didn't. So how does that fit in with your theology if God's sovereignty can not be resisted? Furthermore, if God "expected" it, then that means that had free moral agency!

O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord God.

6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.

Again as above, these arguments only show that Israel had a will, and could choose (and did choose) to reject God.

Are you saying Divine providence does not exist? I am not sure how you would defend this idea scripturally.

The verses you quoted were God's dealing "all day long" with a stiff-necked hard-hearted people. Isa 65:2. This was not a weather pattern that was arbitrarily used against Israel. Israel was under the law and under a covenant that no other nation was under and were told way back in Deuteronomy what would happen if they continued to reject God's law.

To use the same scripture applied to Oklahoma that God used against Israel under these conditions is erroneous. America is not under a covenant and not under the law. When God judges a nation as such, HE TELLS THEM about it. The next global judgment will be during the tribulation, and we are not only told that it is judgment but why. Rev 3:10.

In Matthew 24:7, Jesus said there would be SIGNS in the weather that foreshadow the end. SIGNS and JUDGMENTS are 2 different things. There is absolutely no basis to conclude that what happened in Oklahoma, Katrina, Sandy, Sri Lanka, etc..were the judgment of God.

 

[saturneptune]

God is sovereign in all things. He can use them for His purposes, He can use them as judgement at He pleases. One thing no one has mentioned is that "the rain falls on the righteous and unrighteous. The worst storm I have experienced was Hurricane Camille in 1969. Winds reached near 200 mph. We lost a house on Highway 90.

Of course, if we ever want to change the course or intesity of a hurricane, we can always get Pat to pray for us on the 700 Club.

 

[saturneptune]

I fail to see why you argue with anyone. It is clear that Yeshua was forced to write what he did. Yeshua did not choose to write an opinion that is different from yours but by the sovereign act of God Yeshua wrote what he wrote. Thus if what Yeshua wrote was the divine act of God, then why are you arguing with him? You are arguing against someone that was moved by God to say what he said, isn't that kind of dangerous?

Unless of course you believe that God decreed debates among those He knows result in disagreement.

Hopefully someday those that apply Calvinism to the weather will see the logical fallacies of the conclusions in such an erroneous belief system.

Oops, I forgot to cut and paste a doctrinal statement from another man's work to support my argument. But I was ordained to do that so it's not my fault.

You know what, if I started a thread on taking kids to McDonalds after church, you would turn it into a sovereignty-free will debate.

This thread is on natural disasters. Your posts are man made disasters.

Icon and I have had our differences in the past on theology, however, one thing he does not do is mindlessly cut and paste. I do not believe I have ever met another individual that studies almost every free moment of his life. He knows in depth theology, and has come to the conclusions he has about sovereignty based on his studies and illumination of the Holy Spirit in him.

Another point about Icon, he vigorously defends his points of view, but he is not arrogant in any manner. He never points anything towards himself. The man is quite genuine, and humble. He does not see the need to put "doctor" in front of his screen for all the world to see.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Post 33, Ach

I have offered several portions of scripture that show a direct relationship of God with His creation.God is in total control of all things.
You cannot show any verse where God steps off His throne and is not in complete control of everything.
His eternal purpose is being fulfilled by every means He has wisely chosen to employ.

8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:


Napoleon loses because of snowflakes falling in the severe Russian winter...by God's design...

Showing a direct relationship of God with His creation does not mean that God does not permit things to operate independently as I have showed He did with Job. God's sovereignty means He transcends His creation, and is the king over all of it, but that does not mean that He always controls all of the subjects. Where you are confusing God's sovereignty is that although God does allow events to occur, He has created boundaries within His own system.

For example, the waves of the oceans stop at the shores. WHY? Because God has set laws that prevent them from doing so. Job 38:11. The waves already have instructions that do not need God controlling them to stop them from exceeding the shore line.

Ludicrous....so if the Willard Scott, or Al Roker says - mother nature sent a blizzard...that makes it true?

Natural simply means "of nature". Nature is something God created. Men commit certain actions BY NATURE (Romans 2:11), so nature is Biblical but certainly not "Mother" nature which is a pagan god that denies the actual Creator.

God has created the laws that govern nature, and nature acts within those laws. When God acts outside of those laws, we call them miracles. If God always controlled everything, then there would be nothing to compare a miracle to because a miracle is God working beyond the natural laws that He has established. And sovereignty of God that is demonstrated in that is that He does it, because He can.

But there is a separation from God and what He created, otherwise you are arguing for pantheism and/or panentheism. It is not a deism system either because God can choose when He pleases to intervene. But to claim that God is always in control denies God His ability to choose when He wants to intervene, or perform miracles, and when He wants to allow things to run their natural course, but being "natural" does not mean that the creation operates without instructions.

Sin is an example of what operates unnaturally. God does not control sin, He punishes it and judges it, and eradicates it, but He won't touch it. Habakkuk 1:13. If God controlled sin, He wouldn't have sent Jesus Christ, it would not have been necessary.

God is in control at all times.he uses whatever means he desires;
Daniel 4:34-37




So what....the boundaries were the control, and furthermore we only know what is revealed....

This does not prove that God always controls everything. This says that whatever God does, WHEN HE DOES IT, He does it according to His will. This is a comparison between man and God that showed Nebuchadnezzar that he was nothing compared to God. Nebby attempted to assert His will against God and lost. God's sovereignty was demonstrated in that the created did not stand a chance against the Creator. It was moment where God chose to demonstrate His sovereignty against a prideful human because according to Nebuchadnezzar:

"The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?" Dan 4:30

Thus this is not an example or proof of God controlling everything but demonstrating that nothing controls God and that any good thing that exists is because God allowed and permitted it. When God chooses to control and event, that is His choice to do so, but denying God the ability to choose when He can control something is depriving Him of His sovereignty.

When God restrained Abimelech;
Genesis 20:3-7

We are told God restrained him, yet it is not revealed by what means, before God speaks to him in this dream. That is God's concern....he says he did it, but not exactly how.

Again, same as with Nebuchadnezzar, there are times when God does control a matter, and we can even agree that He does so more often than not, BUT IT HIS HIS CHOICE. If God always controls because He has to, then you are binding His will to His creation.

Only non cals come to this sinful idea...this shows a lack of understanding.

If God controls ALL things, then that includes sin. Simply calling it a misunderstanding without attempting to explain your position doesn't make it true. If sin is a thing, and God controls all things, then it naturally follows that God would control sin and would've been the cause of it. If God controlled Adam's reaction, then ultimately it was God that was the author of sin. Remember, you say God controls ALL THINGS.

Now you can claim that this is the only place where Adam had a choice (where many Calvinists, not all, attempt to justify this logical contradiction by making one exception to their theology). But then when did Adam lose his choice? According to Calvinism, it would have to be after he fell, but yet Adam still responded to God and still heard God's voice even WHILE he was dead in his sin (Gen 3:9).

This is why I said on another thread that all heresies begin with a failure to understand the nature of God. You objected and claimed that it is because of a failure to understand sin. Not true. Men fail to understand how sin operates because they do not understand God's justice, holiness, or sovereignty. The very first thing that was emphasized in the Bible was GOD created the heavens and the earth. The Bible did not begin with a thesis on sin, but on God and His ability to create from nothing. Prior to Adam's sin, he did not have the knowledge of good and evil. Without the knowledge of evil, there was no knowledge of the justice of God. The difference though is that Adam did not NEED to know the justice of God because there was no need for it if he had chosen to obey God by avoiding the tree.

Eve's deception was based on believing what Satan said about God "Yeah hath God said?" Genesis 3:3. Therefore sin began by failing to comprehend and question the nature of God and failing to understand the nature of God ALWAYS leads to error and is the root of all heresy.

What is the #1 commandment? Love the Lord God. Thus if failing to understand sin was the primary cause of error, then knowledge of sin would be the priority in overcoming it. But if failure to understand the nature of God is the primary cause of error, then getting to know God for who He is would be the cure. Therefore, that is why the #1 commandment is to Love the Lord thy God because you can not have a proper understanding of sin, judgment, redemption without a proper understanding of the nature of God.

This flawed carnal reasoning is what gets you into trouble..you take a good verse then add wrong carnal ideas.

"Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?" Habakkuk 1:13

You call it flawed reasoning, I call it reading exactly what the Bible says. And all you did was summarily dismiss it with no attempt to explain why it was "flawed".

Wrong Jesus came into direct contact with the cursed creation and fallen men to accomplish redemption for the elect.You could not be more wrong.

Jesus did not come into contact with the sin. When He did, it was on the cross (2 Cor 5:21) that's when He cried out "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me" Matt 27:46. Sin was imputed to Christ to pay the penalty on behalf of all who deserve it, but Jesus still "knew no sin" 2 Cor 5:21.

Sin does not rule and reign independant over God,or God's control.....not even close.

I said that sin operated independent of God, I did not say that sin RULED over God. This is exactly what I said:

"Sin has cursed humanity and all of creation. Gen 3:17. And thus God has permitted the earth and humanity to run their course in the direction that sin pushes it."

There is nothing in that statement that implies that I said sin rules over God. The fact that sin reigns independently of God is exactly why Paul told believers to NOT LET IT. Romans 6:12. Paul even said that sin slew him. Romans 7:11. When God confronted Cain, it was said that "sin lieth at the door" Gen 4:7.

So yes, sin operates independently of God, and that is why it can be proven that God did not author sin nor is He the cause of it, but Calvinist theology ultimately leads to the opposite if God controls and perpetuates "ALL THINGS".

 

[DrJamesAch]

Icon and I have had our differences in the past on theology, however, one thing he does not do is mindlessly cut and paste. I do not believe I have ever met another individual that studies almost every free moment of his life. He knows in depth theology, and has come to the conclusions he has about sovereignty based on his studies and illumination of the Holy Spirit in him.
*
Another point about Icon, he vigorously defends his points of view, but he is not arrogant in any manner. He never points anything towards himself. The man is quite genuine, and humble. He does not see the need to put "doctor" in front of his screen for all the world to see.

Then explain the utter pettiness of this thread. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1985377&postcount=163 When someone responds with nonsense like that, then they can expect to have the same kind of response.

He knows in depth theology, and has come to the conclusions he has about sovereignty based on his studies and illumination of the Holy Spirit in him.

What, and others don't? Nobody else on here has studied theology? When I raised the issue about my own education, it was directed at only him, and because he consistently repeated "You don't understand" "You haven't read" "You don't know what you're talking about" "that post was horrific" statements . Everything that was different from what he said (much like your dialogue with Rippon) was met with condescension. I don't "throw my degree" around, when asked to introduce myself by Salty and "tell us about you" this is what I said about my "education"

"I have a doctorate in theology, masters in Biblical counseling (nouthetic) and BA in law. My "credentials" don't make me smarter than anyone, and frankly I don't care if you call me Doc, Dr, James, Mr Ach. When I preached to some prisoners, I met an 80 year old guy that had the entire Bible memorized from Genesis to Revelation, and had the 1550 Stephens Greek New Testament memorized (Yes, IN Greek) and that helped put my "degree" in perspective ever since." http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86112

And I said the same thing to Yeshua when he brought it up:

"I only did that with one person, and I explained why I did it. Because he is a bully to everyone that disagrees with him. If you read my statement on the introductions section at the top of the forum, you will see what I think about my "degrees". Jesus didn't have a degree (John 7:15), so I don't look down on others simply because they haven't had any formal education. As I stated in my introduction/welcome I have met some brilliant believers who put me to shame that had no formal training whatsoever.

That's not to say there are not benefits to formal training, but it certainly is not and should not be a measuring stick to evaluate another man's understanding of the Bible." http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1986001&postcount=180

But it is amazing that the Calvinists on here that I have seen ruthlessly vilify all non Calvinists with some of the most venomous vitriol I have ever seen on any forum, but yet God forbid if any of them ever defends themselves. Non Calvinist are expected to just take whatever you claim at face value without disagreement or friendly debate, and if that doesn't happen then they are demeaned like dogs and if the person attempts to defend themselves, then you accuse them of what you've been doing in virtually any response to those who disagree.

I have had numerous dialogues on here in which we are not in agreement, and the conversation never turned to the level of vitriolic condescending rhetoric that I have seen from you and Iconoclast.