Natural Disasters and the Will of God

[Yeshua1]

Then explain the utter pettiness of this thread. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1985377&postcount=163 When someone responds with nonsense like that, then they can expect to have the same kind of response.



What, and others don't? Nobody else on here has studied theology? When I raised the issue about my own education, it was directed at only him, and because he consistently repeated "You don't understand" "You haven't read" "You don't know what you're talking about" "that post was horrific" statements . Everything that was different from what he said (much like your dialogue with Rippon) was met with condescension. I don't "throw my degree" around, when asked to introduce myself by Salty and "tell us about you" this is what I said about my "education"

"I have a doctorate in theology, masters in Biblical counseling (nouthetic) and BA in law. My "credentials" don't make me smarter than anyone, and frankly I don't care if you call me Doc, Dr, James, Mr Ach. When I preached to some prisoners, I met an 80 year old guy that had the entire Bible memorized from Genesis to Revelation, and had the 1550 Stephens Greek New Testament memorized (Yes, IN Greek) and that helped put my "degree" in perspective ever since." http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86112

And I said the same thing to Yeshua when he brought it up:

"I only did that with one person, and I explained why I did it. Because he is a bully to everyone that disagrees with him. If you read my statement on the introductions section at the top of the forum, you will see what I think about my "degrees". Jesus didn't have a degree (John 7:15), so I don't look down on others simply because they haven't had any formal education. As I stated in my introduction/welcome I have met some brilliant believers who put me to shame that had no formal training whatsoever.

That's not to say there are not benefits to formal training, but it certainly is not and should not be a measuring stick to evaluate another man's understanding of the Bible." http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1986001&postcount=180

But it is amazing that the Calvinists on here that I have seen ruthlessly vilify all non Calvinists with some of the most venomous vitriol I have ever seen on any forum, but yet God forbid if any of them ever defends themselves. Non Calvinist are expected to just take whatever you claim at face value without disagreement or friendly debate, and if that doesn't happen then they are demeaned like dogs and if the person attempts to defend themselves, then you accuse them of what you've been doing in virtually any response to those who disagree.

I have had numerous dialogues on here in which we are not in agreement, and the conversation never turned to the level of vitriolic condescending rhetoric that I have seen from you and Iconoclast.

the thing about this Tornado is that i Think we ALL can agree that God is sovereign, that he permitted it to happen, due to natural weatherconditions built into nature that creates those big storms...

Whether He used it directly as a sign/punishmnet, wether he permitted satan to use it, or wether He merely permitted the natural course to happen.. ONLY God knows that!

I am very sure that He ordained that good will come out from this, that he will even now have Christians there offerring help/support/resources, and that hewill be glorfied someway/somehow!

We did see His provodence, for the death toll MUCH less than could have been, or was feared to be!

 

[Yeshua1]

blackbird



Was the flood the judgement of God upon the world of the ungodly,or a fallacy?

the verses in Amos 4.....the drought, the famine, under God's control....or is that also a fallacy? When God keeps asking them....and yet you have not returned to me
Clearly....God was controlling the weather to get the peoples attention....

He expected them to connect the dots- this is no fallacy.
so I do not understand how you would deny this...at all???

O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord God.

6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.



Are you saying Divine providence does not exist? I am not sure how you would defend this idea scripturally.

We would agree that God remains fully in control, NOTHING occurs that he could not have prevented/altered/changed beforehand...

In this case, problem is that ONLY God knows wether He used that directly for his purposes, permitted satan to use it, or was just natural caused storm!

 

[salzer mtn]

For Dr. Do Right

Nahum 1:3 The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

 

[Iconoclast]

ACH,

I will respond in more detail later on to your lengthy post,some of which we will agree on ,and some where we do not.There is some good substance there!
However,
Your constant charges of "of vitriolic condescending rhetoric"....seem to be more of an excuse that you use to avoid the issue.....

on the 1 thread.....you claimed you use the bible alone to answer people.You made that claim.......so I looked on that 1 thread....so you saw the list of your posts with 0 scripture in them.It was not pettiness...it was a fact check,and showed what you said in that 1 thread ...did not quite measure up to the facts.[in that thread]

Sn is correct that we have had many a dispute that we have worked through.
I am thankful that he has offered kind words on my behalf. It should not come to that.

I will admit that sometimes....as HOS said I do not always...."play nice".In a debate room tact is optional.You came in on the attack so to speak. You have drawn some response that you do not like,but is nonetheless accurate to some extent.

I have suggested that we move forward in a more scriptural fashion.

later on i will respond to your lengthy post....more in detail...

If you ask biblical questions you will get biblical answers. If you attack non stop, you can expect some return fire. If you are peaceable progress can take place.

for now;

there is a natural realm[that which is seen] that God has created...there is a supernatural

there is also a spiritual realm[that which is not always seen]
God controls all...He is Lord of All.


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Matt22:37-39]

Question: "What signs indicate that the end times are approaching?"

Answer: Matthew 24:5-8 gives us some important clues so we can discern the approach of the end times, “For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.” An increase in false messiahs, an increase in warfare, and increases in famines, plagues, and natural disasters—these are signs of the end times. In this passage, though, we are given a warning: we are not to be deceived, because these events are only the beginning of birth pains; the end is still to come.

Some interpreters point to every earthquake, every political upheaval, and every attack on Israel as a sure sign that the end times are rapidly approaching. While the events may signal the approach of the last days, they are not necessarily indicators that the end times have arrived. The apostle Paul warned that the last days would bring a marked increase in false teaching. “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1). The last days are described as “perilous times” because of the increasingly evil character of man and people who actively “resist the truth” (2 Timothy 3:1-9; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Other possible signs would include a rebuilding of a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, increased hostility towards Israel, and advances toward a one-world government. The most prominent sign of the end times, however, is the nation of Israel. In 1948, Israel was recognized as a sovereign state, essentially for the first time since A.D. 70. God promised Abraham that his posterity would have Canaan as “an everlasting possession” (Genesis 17:8), and Ezekiel prophesied a physical and spiritual resuscitation of Israel (Ezekiel chapter 37). Having Israel as a nation in its own land is important in light of end times prophecy because of Israel’s prominence in eschatology (Daniel 10:14; 11:41; Revelation 11:8).

With these signs in mind, we can be wise and discerning in regard to the expectation of the end times. We should not, however, interpret any of these singular events as a clear indication of the soon arrival of the end times. God has given us enough information that we can be prepared, and that is what we are called to be.

gotquestions.org

 

[Yeshua1]

ACH,

I will respond in more detail later on to your lengthy post,some of which we will agree on ,and some where we do not.There is some good substance there!
However,
Your constant charges of "of vitriolic condescending rhetoric"....seem to be more of an excuse that you use to avoid the issue.....

on the 1 thread.....you claimed you use the bible alone to answer people.You made that claim.......so I looked on that 1 thread....so you saw the list of your posts with 0 scripture in them.It was not pettiness...it was a fact check,and showed what you said in that 1 thread ...did not quite measure up to the facts.[in that thread]

Sn is correct that we have had many a dispute that we have worked through.
I am thankful that he has offered kind words on my behalf. It should not come to that.

I will admit that sometimes....as HOS said I do not always...."play nice".In a debate room tact is optional.You came in on the attack so to speak. You have drawn some response that you do not like,but is nonetheless accurate to some extent.

I have suggested that we move forward in a more scriptural fashion.

later on i will respond to your lengthy post....more in detail...

If you ask biblical questions you will get biblical answers. If you attack non stop, you can expect some return fire. If you are peaceable progress can take place.

for now;

there is a natural realm[that which is seen] that God has created...there is a supernatural

there is also a spiritual realm[that which is not always seen]
God controls all...He is Lord of All.


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

To me, the real important thing in all of this is that the lord had already ordained that there would be a positive response to this tragedy, as there are MANY christian groups/churches involved in getting his light into this bad situation!

 

[awaken]

I would appreciate learning and knowing how everyone "feels" regarding natural disasters and the "will of God". What are your thoughts?

I believe that God is sadden by what happens!

 

[DrJamesAch]

Nahum 1:3 The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

So do you take the Mormon position that Satan and Jesus are brothers or the Taoist position that evil and good are the same, because Job 1 clearly shows that Satan used the whirlwind to attack Job.

"And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." Job 1:12 "And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. "v 19.

Furthermore, in Revelation 13:13 regarding the man of sin

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men"

Nahum 1:5 says, "the mountains quake at him", so does that mean they ALWAYS QUAKE? Does the earth shake 24 hours a day? If you want to isolate a verse of it's context then you could also use 1 Kings 19:11

"And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake"

 

[saturneptune]

Then explain the utter pettiness of this thread. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1985377&postcount=163 When someone responds with nonsense like that, then they can expect to have the same kind of response.

What, and others don't? Nobody else on here has studied theology? When I raised the issue about my own education, it was directed at only him, and because he consistently repeated "You don't understand" "You haven't read" "You don't know what you're talking about" "that post was horrific" statements . Everything that was different from what he said (much like your dialogue with Rippon) was met with condescension. I don't "throw my degree" around, when asked to introduce myself by Salty and "tell us about you" this is what I said about my "education"

"I have a doctorate in theology, masters in Biblical counseling (nouthetic) and BA in law. My "credentials" don't make me smarter than anyone, and frankly I don't care if you call me Doc, Dr, James, Mr Ach. When I preached to some prisoners, I met an 80 year old guy that had the entire Bible memorized from Genesis to Revelation, and had the 1550 Stephens Greek New Testament memorized (Yes, IN Greek) and that helped put my "degree" in perspective ever since." http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86112

And I said the same thing to Yeshua when he brought it up:

"I only did that with one person, and I explained why I did it. Because he is a bully to everyone that disagrees with him. If you read my statement on the introductions section at the top of the forum, you will see what I think about my "degrees". Jesus didn't have a degree (John 7:15), so I don't look down on others simply because they haven't had any formal education. As I stated in my introduction/welcome I have met some brilliant believers who put me to shame that had no formal training whatsoever.

That's not to say there are not benefits to formal training, but it certainly is not and should not be a measuring stick to evaluate another man's understanding of the Bible." http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1986001&postcount=180

But it is amazing that the Calvinists on here that I have seen ruthlessly vilify all non Calvinists with some of the most venomous vitriol I have ever seen on any forum, but yet God forbid if any of them ever defends themselves. Non Calvinist are expected to just take whatever you claim at face value without disagreement or friendly debate, and if that doesn't happen then they are demeaned like dogs and if the person attempts to defend themselves, then you accuse them of what you've been doing in virtually any response to those who disagree.

I have had numerous dialogues on here in which we are not in agreement, and the conversation never turned to the level of vitriolic condescending rhetoric that I have seen from you and Iconoclast.

My posts have been nothing but civil to you until you started this nonsense. As far as your education goes, anyone can get a doctorate of divinity from a foreign country or an unaccredited school. I have a higher degree also, just not in that area, and I went to class. Not saying you went to a college like this, but for one, a Christian does not do things that put him or her as the center of attention. The other point that raises a red flag, for all of your theological training, you seem to have little or no respect for the sovereignty of the Lord. By the way, a doctorate is requied of most any minister in the Presbyterian denomination. (PCA)

No one has ruthlessly villified you. If this is not the forum for you, maybe you should consider moving on. You know, like shaking the dust off your sandles.

 

[DrJamesAch]

ACH,

I will respond in more detail later on to your lengthy post,some of which we will agree on ,and some where we do not.There is some good substance there!
However,
Your constant charges of "of vitriolic condescending rhetoric"....seem to be more of an excuse that you use to avoid the issue.....

on the 1 thread.....you claimed you use the bible alone to answer people.You made that claim.......so I looked on that 1 thread....so you saw the list of your posts with 0 scripture in them.It was not pettiness...it was a fact check,and showed what you said in that 1 thread ...did not quite measure up to the facts.[in that thread]

And I thoroughly explained post by post how your straw-man analysis was wrong and then showed how you did the exact same thing with even 4 more posts than mine that did not include Bible verses ("MY TURN" http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1985461&postcount=167)

When I say that I use the Bible alone to answer people, does not mean that when I order pizza and they ask me "what kind" I answer "John 3:16 with extra pepperoni". It means when a Biblical response is required that I do not use sources outside of the Bible to prove my point (e.g. relying on quotes from another man's works, or a creedal statement).

Sn is correct that we have had many a dispute that we have worked through.
I am thankful that he has offered kind words on my behalf. It should not come to that.

I will admit that sometimes....as HOS said I do not always...."play nice".In a debate room tact is optional.You came in on the attack so to speak. You have drawn some response that you do not like,but is nonetheless accurate to some extent.

I vigorously defend what I believe, and I agree most do. I believe that most here have good intentions and have studied their perspective as intently as I have studied mine. But I do not think anyone who disagrees with me is stupid, or has no understanding, or posts horrific posts. I may believe that your conclusions are wrong or verses are misinterpreted, but I do not believe that reflects on your character.

I have suggested that we move forward in a more scriptural fashion.

later on i will respond to your lengthy post....more in detail...

If you ask biblical questions you will get biblical answers. If you attack non stop, you can expect some return fire. If you are peaceable progress can take place.

I don't mind return fire until it becomes personal.

there is a natural realm[that which is seen] that God has created...there is a supernatural

there is also a spiritual realm[that which is not always seen]
God controls all...He is Lord of All.


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I'm not debating that God is not sovereign over His creation. He most certainly is. And I am not arguing that God can NOT control everything, and do so all of the time. But there is a reason that God DOESN'T control everything all of the time, that's why such events are called "permissive" will. Permissive will is still within God's sovereignty because whatever He permits is still within the bounds of universal laws and axioms that He has created to confine whatever action is being permitted.

God must be "permitted" so-to-speak (permitted in our arguments) to choose as He pleases to intervene in His creation, or to not intervene. "Who hath known the mind of the Lord" or "who hath been his counselor?" (Rom 11:34, 1 Cor 2:16) Nobody can say for certain that disasters as such were God's doing, or that they were judgments, or that they served a specific purpose (like perhaps because 51 people died, there may be a Baptist preacher at 10 of the funerals and 20 people get saved). There are times when God controls the environments and the outcomes, when he sets kings up and takes them down, and times when God does not intervene. But regardless of what and how God does what He does, it is always God's choice to exercise His sovereignty when and as He sees fit. He will remain sovereign in all of these events because sovereignty is an immutable attribute of His nature.

 

[Rippon]

My posts have been nothing but civil to you...

And quite uncivil to me and a number of others.

By the way, a doctorate is requied [sic]of most any minister in the Presbyterian denomination. (PCA)

No one has ruthlessly villified[sic] you.

But you have been relentless in doing so against myself and John Calvin.

You know, like shaking the dust off your sandles.[sic]

You need to be shaken and not merely stirred S/N.

 

[DrJamesAch]

My posts have been nothing but civil to you until you started this nonsense. As far as your education goes, anyone can get a doctorate of divinity from a foreign country or an unaccredited school. I have a higher degree also, just not in that area, and I went to class. Not saying you went to a college like this, but for one, a Christian does not do things that put him or her as the center of attention. The other point that raises a red flag, for all of your theological training, you seem to have little or no respect for the sovereignty of the Lord. By the way, a doctorate is requied of most any minister in the Presbyterian denomination. (PCA)

No one has ruthlessly villified you. If this is not the forum for you, maybe you should consider moving on. You know, like shaking the dust off your sandles.

First of all, *I* didn't start it, and I showed what thread it started from. Perhaps you entered into your defense not knowing where it started from.

And it appears you just ignored everything I said previously about my education so I'll not respond any further to your comment about it.