Near Death Experience

[reformedbeliever]

I will tell you from my own experience that I saw my body in the water, where I was drowning. I was in a panic, and then the most amazing peace came over me. There was very bright light, and it was through that light that I saw my body in the water. Take it for what you will. I know what I experienced. Was it near death? Yes Was the light Jesus? I don't know. The light never talked to me, but it was the most peaceful feeling I've ever experienced.

 

[Martin]

My last heart surgery I was swelled so big my family could not tell it was me unless they already knew. In my state of mind I was in a land of pain which was unbearable and I could see another land, one without pain. I ask God to let me die so I could enter that land, but He wouldn't let me.

I once dreamed of being out of the body and watching people dealing with my body. I won't go into details but it was a time of trouble in the church. I know it was something weird.

==A Godly gentleman in my church had a heart-attack several years ago and after his attack the doctors required heart surgery. The surgery was several days after the heart attack and he had been allowed to go home (etc) so he was not on any strong medication when these things happened. He has told his story several times at our church and to several people. He said that when he returned for his surgery he was understandably scared. He claims to have seen at least two beings, that he refers to as angels, in his hospital room prior to the surgery. He will not describe what they looked like however he does say they brought him the message that the Lord was with him and everything was going to turn out just fine (and it did). He said he never saw them again (even after the surgery when he was on strong medication). It was not a NDE but surely an interesting story.

Do I believe him? Yes.

 

[Helen]

For what it's worth, I have been extremely close to death a couple of times -- both times I was expected to die: when the horse kicked me in the gut when I was 21 and when an ovarian cyst ruptured, touching off my appendix, and I ended up with severe peritonitis when I was 30. Both times I spent time in extreme pain, floating in and out of consciousness. Neither time were their any lights or angels or anything else.

However, after the last, several days after the surgery, when I was still sinking and not expected to live more than about 24 hours more (from what I was told later), I knew I was dying. And it felt like sinking gently into a deep, velvety well where there was finally no more pain. I remember talking to my brother at one point on the phone and telling him I was just giving up. He got upset and I guess kicked a number of prayer chains into operation.

I obviously didn't die!

But that experience of sinking gently was peaceful. And, contrary to the ND experiences, there was no light, only a rather blessed and gentle darkness.

I would like to suggest that a number of visitations are the results of actual brain damage due to lack of oxygen during these times of death or near death, but that these brains also belong to people who had rejected Christ in the first place, and thus are subject to being manipulated by demonic forces. In other words, it might well be a combination of both the medical condition and the choices these people had made prior to the experience.

Edit: I think the two posts above mine do show that Christ-given experiences can happen as well, and I didn't mean to speak against that.

 

[Martin]

I would like to suggest that a number of visitations are the results of actual brain damage due to lack of oxygen during these times of death or near death

==That is certainly a good explanation for the tunnel and bright light at the end of the tunnel. Indeed I believe scientists have been able to duplicate that experience by triggering a certain area of the brain. However, and this is a big however, there are things they have not been able to explain or to duplicate. The looking down at their own body, indeed looking down at their own body and later describing with frightening detail things that were done around them. One of my theories on this type of NDE is, in a way, very simple really. If humans do have a spirit, and I certainly believe we do, then it would make sense in certain tramatic circumstances for that spirit to leave the body for a second maybe because it thinks it is time to leave (I don't know). If that may explain what is happening then these NDEs could be similar to biological events. It would also be proof that non-Christians should not take comfort in positive NDEs (there are plenty of very negative NDE accounts).

 

[reformedbeliever]

For what it's worth, I have been extremely close to death a couple of times -- both times I was expected to die: when the horse kicked me in the gut when I was 21 and when an ovarian cyst ruptured, touching off my appendix, and I ended up with severe peritonitis when I was 30. Both times I spent time in extreme pain, floating in and out of consciousness. Neither time were their any lights or angels or anything else.

However, after the last, several days after the surgery, when I was still sinking and not expected to live more than about 24 hours more (from what I was told later), I knew I was dying. And it felt like sinking gently into a deep, velvety well where there was finally no more pain. I remember talking to my brother at one point on the phone and telling him I was just giving up. He got upset and I guess kicked a number of prayer chains into operation.

I obviously didn't die!

But that experience of sinking gently was peaceful. And, contrary to the ND experiences, there was no light, only a rather blessed and gentle darkness.

I would like to suggest that a number of visitations are the results of actual brain damage due to lack of oxygen during these times of death or near death, but that these brains also belong to people who had rejected Christ in the first place, and thus are subject to being manipulated by demonic forces. In other words, it might well be a combination of both the medical condition and the choices these people had made prior to the experience.

Edit: I think the two posts above mine do show that Christ-given experiences can happen as well, and I didn't mean to speak against that.

No problem Helen. I've been in emergency medicine for a long time and completely understand what you have stated about oxygen depravation. Again, I do not view my NDE as anything other than the fact that if you are a Christian, you need not fear death. Even something as terrifying as drowning can become a peaceful experience. I think we draw near to Christ in our last moments. What did Stephen do when he was stoned?

It is rather ironic that I was the one who had to do cpr on my grandson when he nearly drowned in our pool. I say nearly, lightly, because I have never done cpr on a person who was as far gone as he was, and survived.

He had no brain damage. When he woke in the ER the next morning, the first thing he asked me (four years old) Papa, where are those pretty ladies in the sparkly dresses? I asked what pretty ladies. He said those that were holding his hands by the pool. There were no pretty ladies in sparkly dresses at the pool. Take it for what you will.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

==That is certainly a good explanation for the tunnel and bright light at the end of the tunnel. Indeed I believe scientists have been able to duplicate that experience by triggering a certain area of the brain. However, and this is a big however, there are things they have not been able to explain or to duplicate. The looking down at their own body, indeed looking down at their own body and later describing with frightening detail things that were done around them. One of my theories on this type of NDE is, in a way, very simple really. If humans do have a spirit, and I certainly believe we do, then it would make sense in certain tramatic circumstances for that spirit to leave the body for a second maybe because it thinks it is time to leave (I don't know). If that may explain what is happening then these NDEs could be similar to biological events. It would also be proof that non-Christians should not take comfort in positive NDEs (there are plenty of very negative NDE accounts).

I would disagree with the spirit leaving the body temporarily, Martin.

The Word of God tells us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I do not beleive any account of out of body experiences. The Word of God tells us that when we see the Lord, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

If the person's spirit left the body, it would have to be in the presence of the Lord Himself. And if the Lord did allow them to come back to the sinful flesh, it would go against that which we read in Luke 16 in the story (not parable) of Lazarus.

 

[Martin]

I would disagree with the spirit leaving the body temporarily

==I am not saying that my theory is right or fact. It is really just brainstorming. I mean there are too many of these type experiences to just write them off as brain damage. After all there are things in many of these NDEs that brain damage cannot account for.

The Word of God tells us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

==Well of course this is speaking of death and that is not what we are talking about.

If the person's spirit left the body, it would have to be in the presence of the Lord Himself.

==Again since we are not talking about actual death I don't see any Biblical reason for that. These people have not actually died they are "near" death. What do these experiences say about actual life after death? See my reply.

And if the Lord did allow them to come back to the sinful flesh, it would go against that which we read in Luke 16 in the story (not parable) of Lazarus.

==Well the Lord did allow and Lazarus to come back to life after he was truly dead. Even that goes beyond what is being talked about here since we are not talking about people who were truly dead.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I would debate again on the NDE.

Paul did not say to be dead is to be with the Lord, he said 'to be absent from the body'.

If the spirit is God's, when it leaves the body, it goes to be with the Lord.

NDE accounts of people leaving their body is hogwash. If they left the body, they would be with the Lord. They would see Him, and be like Him.

As to Jesus' friend Lazarus, there is no account of what transpired in his life after his resurrection from the dead. He had to have been in the place Abraham and the other Lazarus was... providing the other Lazarus died prior to Jesus' friend. But after his resurrection, we have nothing other than a meal at his house.

The Word says it is appointed unto man once to die... I believe Lazarus could not have died a second death. I believe he was taken up with the dead that were seen in the city after Christ's death.

I do beleive that somthing happens to people who are close to death, but I do not believe the spirit hovers over the body and then returns to it.

 

[Brother Bob]

1Ki 17:22And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Mar 10:27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Martin,

Interesting thread. I have not formed an opinion on this matter yet, but your conclusions seem to be in harmony with the scripture. Even the spirit or soul leaving the body (as a process) is supported by scripture...

Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.

I hope this is helpful.

Max

 

[Martin]

Paul did not say to be dead is to be with the Lord, he said 'to be absent from the body'.

==Of course there Paul is speaking about death. His readers knew that and we know that.

NDE accounts of people leaving their body is hogwash. If they left the body, they would be with the Lord. They would see Him, and be like Him.

==Well that's not a response. There are too many of these type accounts, that have too many unexplainable details, to simply write them off as "hogwash".

The Word says it is appointed unto man once to die... I believe Lazarus could not have died a second death. I believe he was taken up with the dead that were seen in the city after Christ's death.

==Of course you have no Scripture to back that up with. From what we know Lazarus, and the others Jesus raised, later died again. Hebrews 9:27 does not speak to their situation nor does it speak to Elijah in the Old Testament who was taken into heaven without death, nor will it speak to those who are taken in the rapture. Hebrews 9:27 is the norm but there are Biblical exceptions to that norm.

Also Hebrews 9:27 does not deal with this issue since, again, we are not talking about people who have actually died. Near death and after death are two different things.

 

[Martin]

Martin,

Interesting thread. I have not formed an opinion on this matter yet, but your conclusions seem to be in harmony with the scripture. Even the spirit or soul leaving the body (as a process) is supported by scripture...

Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.

I hope this is helpful.

Max

==Interesting point. I will have to look at that further. Thanks.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Elijah will come back for his appointment with death. Enoch will as well.

 

[Martin]

Elijah will come back for his appointment with death. Enoch will as well.

Those taken at the rapture?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

will be changed

 

[Martin]

will be changed

But they don't face death.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Those who are 'in Christ' die daily

 

[Brother Bob]

seems to me they will have to suffer death in the change in a moment a twinkling of an eye.

1Cr 15:36[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

And of course there is the appointment. I think that change is death of the natural man and alive with the Spirit.

 

[Martin]

Those who are 'in Christ' die daily

That is not what we are talking about. The issue here is physical death, well, it was suppose to be NDEs but we have wondered away from that.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I am not disputing that there is a NDE, only that people claim they left their body.

The Bible does not point to such.

I submit that rather than leaving their body, they experience a vision of sorts.