Need A True Explaination of Calvinism

Romans 1 refutes this strawman, therefore I don't need to.

 

Ok, but here was my point. Paul was a man beyond his thirties and a man of laws of God who knew what sin was. Are you saying (contending) that Paul who was well advanced into maturity with full metal facalties, and was still under the age of accountability as though he did not know what real sin and rebellion to God was??
I say he DID know but did not know that he was one of the very type of people (rebellious to truths of God) he was persecuting. He THOUGHT he was right before God and therefore alive TO God but when God revealed his self-righteousness through a one-on-one with Jesus Himself (the very measure of Godliness) he realized the law applied to him as his works done in the flesh were meaningless in sin and therefore died in the true revelation of the Law of himself.

Yes but you and I both speak of children or you pre-teens and MAYBE teens. But Paul was a man and well beyond his youth. It takes a long time to get where Paul did religiously in the sect he was in.

 

Allan, I think Paul was referring to a time in the past...well before his thirties. It could have been prior to him becoming a "man" at his Bar Mitzvah, or shortly thereafter. I believe everyone in their thirties not only has the mental capacities, but has been given enought truth to know what sin is.

I agree that Paul believed that by the very fact he was a pharisee and kept the law he 'thought' he was spiritually OK with God, but in keeping with the theme of the book (Romans 5:13, 6:23, 7:8, etc.) he states emphatically in 7:9 that he WAS alive apart from the law UNTIL the commandment came. I don't see where he is putting this into the perspective of what he thought...but what was actual fact. Also, if Paul meant that he thought he was alive due to the commandments and being a pharissee, he would have also thought he died the moment he broke his first one earlier in life after receiving the commandments as a youth. At that moment he would have realized he was spiritually dead. This never happened until the road to Damascus.

 

Webdog,
Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my last post to you, #180.

 

Reconcile that with how your doctrine of how one has to recognize that their sin leads to spiritual death before they are accountable. The native may not know his sin leads to spiritual death. I mean, if we are willing to extend the AofA out to 14 or so, why not 20? Why not 30? Why not 30 for a native who has no other religious influence? He might think he is a good guy without any awareness of sin leading to spiritual death. I guess this is one of those cases where "all" doesn't mean "all"? (Rom. 3:23)

 

We can short circuit the argument of sin and accountability of sin. People go to Hell because that is what God chose for them, Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

So what has condemnation got to do with breaking the law? People died from the time of Adam to the time of Moses even though there was no embodiment of the law.

john.

 

Election stood

Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

His election stood, just as His election will stand that those who trust in Jesus will be saved.

He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and His word say's He will have mercy on those who trust in His Son.

It is not by our work, but by the work of Jesus Christ that we are saved. We are saved by grace through faith, there is no other way.

The faith is given to us by God through His word, and we can reject it and walk away.

 

Are we stronger than God? John 10: 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

john.

 

Why not 40? Why not 50? What if someone MRDD lived to be 60?

If you have a problem with the age, ask God why those Israelites 20 and younger were not accountable of their parents' disobedience to God, and were allowed in the promised land.

 

Why only limit it to children? Tell me what law the person born with hardly any mental capacity can grasp?
There is a difference between being innocent and not guilty, btw.

The result of Adam's sin was physical death to all men...not his guilt. We are all held accountable for our OWN sin, not our parents or Adam's.

I'm sorry you didn't understand, but I would suggest further study of the greek, then.

Because Scripture tells us it has been appointed for all of us to die ONCE...and then the judgement. Sounds like condemnation to me.

I thought I had already, but at any rate, tell me when Adam and Eve died. Was it when they broke God's command and did what they were specifically told not to or not?

 

Wise and lean

We are not stronger than God, that is why we who are His sheep will depend on God through Jesus Christ, and that is why God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and reveiled the truth to little chidren.

No one can snatch us from Jesus, but we can walk away, just like the young rich ruler did.

Jesus came into His own(His sheep) and they received Him not.

Jesus says if you disown me I will disown you, just like He did.

Since the original members didn't want to come to the banquet, He sent the messenger out to invite everyone, and anyone who comes without putting on Jesus will be cast out of the banquet where there will be darknesss, weeping and knashing of teeth

 

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

condemn verb (condemned, condemning) 1 to declare something to be wrong or evil (All men). 2 to pronounce someone guilty (All men); to convict someone (All men). 3 (usually condemn someone to something (All men ) a to sentence them to (a punishment, especially death (All men); b to force into (a disagreeable fate (All men). 4 to show the guilt of someone; (All men) (Chambers)

...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

john.

 

Condemnation, btw, is not a verb, as you have given, but the result of the verb (trespass).
You then have the result of the action (sin, trespass) being
1. Wrong...result of trespass
2. Guilty...result of trespass
3. Sentenced...result of trespass
4. showing the guilt of the trespass

Care to do the same thing with the rest? 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Not a universalist, too, are you

 

Heb 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

PS 139:5 You hem me in--behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
PS 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
PS 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
PS 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
PS 139:9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
PS 139:10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
PS 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
PS 139:12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

john.

 

webdog.

[Personal attack edited]. What's a verb? I know English. I know that ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... has the same meaning as after one trepass all mankind was condemned. Is that not what it says? I can't understand what you mean except it will probably go something like: We were not all condemned in Adam and we are free to make our own choices thank you very much? Is that right? [Personal attack edited--focus on the OP, please; Webdog is not the OP]

john.

 

I would hope you know english...living in England and all...
If you know the difference, please explain why you posted the definition of the VERB condemn and not the object of the VERB in the text (trespass)?

Still waiting on this...

You claim we are all guilty and born "dead" due to the trespass of one man...then the rest of the verse would have to support that same logic...that through the one act of righteousness...ALL MEN are brought to life. Not a universalist, too, are you?

This is why context helps, folks...

 

scripture

Great verses and I agree with everyone of them, but you cannot choose to accept those scripture deny the rest for your own self assurrance, you must believe every word that comes from the mouth of God. That has always kept me safe from false teaching to not denying one scripture. the five-point calvinist who have been enfluenced by hyper-calvinist will never get me traped in thier snare, because I have never turned away from what God has convinced me of in my youth that God loved the world that He sent His Son. I am not saying i dissagree with calvinism before the five-point, but they still had so much more to learn and they still do.

Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, but we can walk away from Him who is our life.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9
But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown 13
if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
By standing firm you will gain life.

Hebrews 312See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

You will sink in the water looking at yourself , keep your eyes and focus on Jesus, because He is the one that keeps you afloat.

See Peter was looking at Jesus to keep him afloat. When Peter took his eyes off of Him he sank. It is God who keeps us afloat and He keeps us afloat because we keep our eyes on Him.

This scripture will show you what I am saying better

Numbers 21:
The Bronze Snake
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, [Hebrew Yam Suph ; that is, Sea of Reeds] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

 

I do not. A verb is a doing word isn't it? That's as far as I can go with this. What's it got to do with English, especially, what's it got to do with changing the meaning of a simple English sentence ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... ? Will it change the meaning to ...just as the result of one trespass was not condemnation for all men... ? We don't know proper grammar down here.

You do? That's nice, I get by thanks. If there is something wrong with my English why do you continue my thought in saying '...then the rest of the verse would have to support that same logic...' which it does? Therefore I assume there is nothing wrong with my English is there?

Why you deny it is the question not why do I believe it? The rest of the verse is logical and well you know it. The same all men are meant. Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience...
Now you know I'm not universalist why bring it up as if it is a legit question, anyway, being called a universalist by you is a great improvement on what you were calling me the other day isn't it? PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. PS 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
You have a way in setting aside scripture to your own ends as far as I can see. Surely I was sinful...from the time my mother conceived me. Is my confession where is yours? Why don't you believe what David said? Because you don't want to.

Why? Does it change the meaning of RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men... ? Does Romans 5:18 really say that no one is condemned in Adam? I agree everyone is saved in Christ and if I'm not mistaken you believe that as well.

john.

 

psalms.

Christians have no fear of walking away even if they walk away. To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: Jude 1.

The Prodigal Son remained a son psalms, whether he went back or not.

That's just the point isn't it? Peter did not sink did he? MT 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

Why are you saying Peter sank as if it is akin to walking away? Why do you say Peter sank, he did not sink did he psalms? Answer this and you will never get that sinking feeling again. Did Peter walk on water? Yes. Did Peter's faith fail? Yes. Did Peter sink? No. Did Jesus keep him from sinking? Yes. Did Peter go into the lion's den? Yes. Did Peter's faith fail? Yes. Did Peter disown Jesus three times? Yes. Did Jesus disown Peter three times? No. MT 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. Heb 2:11.

john.

 

Then you are a universalist. If you claim every single person ever created are condemned guilty of Adam's sin per verse 18, then every single person ever created are also made righteous through Christ.