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Need some advice and prayers

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are you buying into being Robb Bell, in that all should get saved by God, that he needs to be fair and equally save all people, anything else is "unlike God?"

Is that what I said? Be careful of lashing out with such rhetorical responses in regards to a call not to preach darkness as it tends to directly expose
you by what you object to.

Not interested in your accusations that my knowing God’s love and truth in such a matter is in question through your claiming my opinion of His justice and judgment is based on my emotionalism and feelings that God is not fair. I understand His judgment to be true and thereby perfectly fair. What you don’t understand is that His judgment is real and in truth (Deut 32:4) and is based on our ability to respond in truth; that takes “real” faith from “real” free will/volition. I’m sorry that you are so bent on trying to proclaim we have no such ability but I can’t help you with that, faith must come from your own heart through love of the truth in that light which has been revealed to all through the Holy Spirit. Maybe try seeking God in truth as you are commanded when seeing that light instead of resting on what you perceive as an intellectual truth through a theological system that declares you do not have to respond in faith out of your own heart because this has been determined upon you as being one of the specially pre-selected few. There is a real condition of faith, Jesusfan, don’t let the devils convince you that such a thing could only be forced upon you. God’s judgment is very fair, real and based on true faith; slow down and examine “yourself” whether “you” truly be in the faith:

(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 
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JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Is that what I said? Be careful of lashing out with such rhetorical responses in regards to a call not to preach darkness as it tends to directly expose
you by what you object to.

Not interested in your accusations that my knowing God’s love and truth in such a matter is in question through your claiming my opinion of His justice and judgment is based on my emotionalism and feelings that God is not fair. I understand His judgment to be true and thereby perfectly fair. What you don’t understand is that His judgment is real and in truth (Deut 32:4) and is based on our ability to respond in truth; that takes “real” faith from “real” free will/volition. I’m sorry that you are so bent on trying to proclaim we have no such ability but I can’t help you with that, faith must come from your own heart through love of the truth in that light which has been revealed to all through the Holy Spirit. Maybe try seeking God in truth as you are commanded when seeing that light instead of resting on what you perceive as an intellectual truth through a theological system that declares you do not have to respond in faith out of your own heart because this has been determined upon you as being one of the specially pre-selected few. There is a real condition of faith, Jesusfan, don’t let the devils convince you that such a thing could only be forced upon you. God’s judgment is very fair, real and based on true faith; slow down and examine “yourself” whether “you” truly be in the faith:

(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

How badly do you see humanity being affected by the fall of adam then?

and i never have questioned if Non cals are saved, nor if they can hold to other theologies then me...

ALl that I have ever said is that that in area of Sotierology ALONE for ME, cal sytsem of viewing it superior to other models used here on BB!
 
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agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I normally wouldn't take the time to respond to this post, but because I have read it a couple times in other threads (or something most similar), I consider it providential and worth the response.

You said:


Just beware of false doctrines:

(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Perhaps you are mixing the education of the believer with the salvation of the believer. Paul is discussing what the results of the believer being educated and schooled. He is NOT discussing salvation.

This is the message of the Gospel we are to preach:

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

And this is true from the foundations of the world through the ages and on through eternity - for even in eternity there is no sun or moon, but Christ that gives all light.

Yet, some attempt to preach the Gospel message, the Word, the Light that God put into the world is full of darkness and despair ... Beware of that those who would tell the lies of the devil and proclaim to others that they may have no ability to see the light, or even the ability to respond to the true and genuine promise God gave to all His creatures.


You have no right to dispute the Scriptures. It is the Scriptures that clearly state that the natural man, unsaved man, unbeliever,... are blind, intellectually darkened, and cannot even be aware much less receive the things of God.

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

As has been shown, ALL, always means ALL!

Jesus did not lie. However, you want to place all in a state of capable of self determination to receive or reject Christ. That isn't the case. What Jesus said is accurate. ALL, even the most vile wicked person that has ever lived, will be drawn to Christ!

BUT the word "draw" also mean to be drug; sort of like a fish on a fish hook. So, YES all will be "drawn" for ALL will bow and acknowledge Jesus as Lord. But not ALL will be "drawn" to Christ the same way.



(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

These verses are taken out of context and have little to do with your supporting your view of salvation and "all" being as you would determine.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


The problem here is that you want to place the natural man as "willing." But that isn't supported by the Scriptures.

"NO MAN SEEKS GOD." is as valid a scripture today as it was thousands of years ago.

"Whosoever will" means one who delights, or is inclined, or determined. In this case it is used as one already saved. Only the saved can come to the water of life and drink. You neglected to consider the state of the setting of the place of that water. Please do not forget that, unlike the modern and in the past, the the bride and the spirit will not prevent anyone from coming but rejoice in that no matter the case there are no racial, physical, station, or gender conditions for fellowship and that will prevent any believer from that river. BUT NEVER is this river offered to the unsaved! Read the context - the verse or two before state clearly that THIS IS TO THE CHURCH!!!!

The UNSAVED won't ever even get to see this beautiful sight!


Don’t walk in the vanity ...

Again, unsupported rant.

Don’t buy into a theological system where you can plainly and truthfully see that many strive to twist the truth of God’s genuine loving promise to all His creatures into “something else” that is full of darkness.


God's genuine loving promise to all his creatures????????

the snake, the whale, the snail, the amoeba...

Is this actually what you hold to be scriptural?

The world is under condemnation. It and all the heavens will pass in a terrible heat.

Let's review:

No one is saying that Christ does not bring light to the darkened world. But, so do believers - "Ye, are the light of the world..."

No one is saying that Christ doesn't draw - but that is the point - HE does the drawing - NOT man determination.

No one is saying that education of the believer is unimportant - not when Paul says that we are to filter everything spoken in the assembly through the Scriptures, and as John said, to try the spirits to see if they be of God.

No one is saying that witnessing and testimony of Christ isn't good - not when the Scriptures clearly state the opposite.

BUT, what you lend as truth about what the Scriptures state has clearly been shown inaccurate. Therefore, that inaccuracy leads one to a false conclusion, which you have reached.




Should you consider any part of what I posted to you as false, show me by scriptures where I am mistaken, just as I have taken the time to refute your post.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Should you consider any part of what I posted to you as false, show me by scriptures where I am mistaken, just as I have taken the time to refute your post.

Oh, I think you are totally full of mud in your purely rhetorical old hat responses that don't use one scripture in your so called "refute" of the scriptures I already posted. :laugh:

I'm busy now, but I might try to get back to some of your more obvious mistakes such as declaring inability to seek God later. :cool: Although, shouldn't be highjacking this tread with all that; why don't you open another tread, I'd be glad to post you a few scriptures to the contrary which show God commands us to seek Him and how that command is not just His idea pulling our pre-determined legs.
 
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plain_n_simple

Active Member
I read your posts sometimes and think that you might have an agenda for being here? From reading your posts in this now closed thread, either you've come to a conclusion pretty quickly about Calvin, or your just being facetious.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75421

Agenda? Truth, discussion. I've never heard nor read the John Calvin doctrine before I came here. I have heard general statements before not realizing they were John Calvins words, but now can connect those statements as John Calvin's. Yes, after carefully reading about the man John Calvin, his doctrine and his followers defense of it, I have come to a conclusion, quick or not does not matter to me. I take doctrine seriously and when I know something to be false I do treat it as a joke a times. Maybe I should not look at false doctrine as a joke as it hurts people.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Agenda? Truth, discussion. I've never heard nor read the John Calvin doctrine before I came here. I have heard general statements before not realizing they were John Calvins words, but now can connect those statements as John Calvin's. Yes, after carefully reading about the man John Calvin, his doctrine and his followers defense of it, I have come to a conclusion, quick or not does not matter to me. I take doctrine seriously and when I know something to be false I do treat it as a joke a times. Maybe I should not look at false doctrine as a joke as it hurts people.

Or maybe you can get past the label and the man.

Perhaps you might look at the specifics of the doctrine and scriptural references in support of the view?

Refute the view with Scriptures.

You can join the thread I just started for Benjamin to post Scriptures in opposition or defense of the views.
 

plain_n_simple

Active Member
Or maybe you can get past the label and the man.

I have to look at the fruits of what this man John Calvin did and wrote, and it's reaction and effect on the Body of Christ, and compare what his effect is in light of scripture.


Perhaps you might look at the specifics of the doctrine and scriptural references in support of the view?

I did that carefully for myself. On the surface Calvinism looked to be well thought out, logical. It took me a bit to look over the Westminster Confession, looking at each scripture it gave in support.

Refute the view with Scriptures.

I also did this carefully and came up with even more scripture.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
How about we make another thread with the well worn topic of CvA and let's leave this thread to the issue that the OP brought up, OK??
 
I've been reading this thread with intrest as in the past year I've come to embrace the Doctrines of Grace myself. I've bolded a section of your post and I think your going through what they call "cage stage", there may be some threads here about it, or you can search Puritan Board as well. Seems to be common, and I feel like I've gone through it some myself.

I've not really talked to my wife about my stance on the issue, we are in a biblically sound SBC church with a Reformed pastor, and that is my greatest concern that she is hearing sound preaching. Of course I have a responsiblity as head of household to be the husband/man God has called me to be.

I have been wanting to discuss this issue with my brother and father, even share some Spurgeon I've read. I've decided though just to not discuss it unless they bring it up, as I'm a bit of a black sheep as it is being Baptist, when the rest of my family are members of another denomination. I'm just thankful that they truly know the Lord and walk humbly seeking to serve him.


I have heard of the "cage stage" isn't that where people advocate putting newcomers to the DoG in a cage until they calm down a bit? If this is that stage than I do understand that perspective. When I first started to grasp the DoG i never really thought much about the possible repercussions that could come from that kind of a switch in points of view. I know this sounds incredibly naive but I really thought my wife would jump on board with me and be as excited as I was, (again I know that sounds INCREDIBLY naive) normally we are in agreement on Biblical things. This is the first time we have ever had any kind of serious disagreement. It is totally understandable, just came as a bit of a reality check. The really difficult thing is that while I am starting to see that the DoG has a stronger Biblical basis, there is so much that I still can't explain. So when my wife asks questions I am stymied. I have asked her to read "What is Reformed Theology" by R.C. Sproul, I read it and thought it was great. Others have offered other books and such so for now it is just a matter of continuing to pray and study and see where it goes.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The really difficult thing is that while I am starting to see that the DoG has a stronger Biblical basis, there is so much that I still can't explain. So when my wife asks questions I am stymied. I have asked her to read "What is Reformed Theology" by R.C. Sproul, I read it and thought it was great. Others have offered other books and such so for now it is just a matter of continuing to pray and study and see where it goes.


Sounds to me like you found yourself a theological system but can’t explain or (force) fit the scriptures to agree with that system from within your own reasoning so you have been turning to the philosophies of men who are more experienced at force fitting the scriptures and hoping to use their reasoning to box things in for you? Have you ever thought that your excitement with all this intellectualism of being able to have in-depth knowledge of a theological system that you have recently been caught up in, like so many others that need to be caged up for a while because of their excitement of being intellectual about such things, might be outweighing the better principle of letting your theology fit the scriptures rather than making the scriptures fit your theology???
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
As the title says I am in need of alot of prayers and some advice. When I first came to the BB I was completely against Calvinism or DOG. I considered it heresy and denied it vehemently. In the time I have been here I have read the vast majority of the threads regarding the debate between C/A, and though I post little I do follow them intently. At first it was to try to learn different arguments against the Calvinist position, but about 6 months ago I started to see things in a different light. Now, though I admit there are many things I do not understand and I cannot always adequately explain what I think, I believe that the position commonly referred to as "Calvinism" to be the more correct view. Still studying and still praying but coming more and more to that conclusion. Here is my problem. My wife is ardently opposed to this view and sees it as "unfair" and not right. Which is exactly where I was before. Ther problem is that it is starting to cause some turmoil in my family. I have been able to avoid a direct confrontation until last night. One of my kids asked me a question concerning how God saves people and when I started to answer a small war broke out. This is not what I want in my family. At the same time I don't want to teach something that I no longer believe to be true. Again I freely admit that I am new to this and as a result still struggle with adequate explanations which probably escalated the problem. Any advice and especially prayers will be appreciated. Thanks

Friend, I have been where you are, and I went through the same exact struggles you are now going through. I was taken back by these things, yet the Scriptures continued to reveal these truths to me as well, and at first against my will, yet truth won the day, and it will for you and yours as well. Simply obey Psalm 62:8.

I will pray for you. God bless.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have heard of the "cage stage" isn't that where people advocate putting newcomers to the DoG in a cage until they calm down a bit? If this is that stage than I do understand that perspective. When I first started to grasp the DoG i never really thought much about the possible repercussions that could come from that kind of a switch in points of view. I know this sounds incredibly naive but I really thought my wife would jump on board with me and be as excited as I was, (again I know that sounds INCREDIBLY naive) normally we are in agreement on Biblical things. This is the first time we have ever had any kind of serious disagreement. It is totally understandable, just came as a bit of a reality check. The really difficult thing is that while I am starting to see that the DoG has a stronger Biblical basis, there is so much that I still can't explain. So when my wife asks questions I am stymied. I have asked her to read "What is Reformed Theology" by R.C. Sproul, I read it and thought it was great. Others have offered other books and such so for now it is just a matter of continuing to pray and study and see where it goes.


AD and MRS
Keep in mind when Jesus or the apostles gave this teaching it was spoken about with thankful and joyful praise to God. It was spoken openly and prominently as it was to be a great comfort to the saints.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself
:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Some who do not yet understand this blessing speak against what they do not know.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
When I read Paul and look at his life I see his epistle's and his life doesn't teach that some can't come. It is telling us the state of man we need to reach them mainly through our life.

I believe God loved the world that he sent His Son and in Election and in the end there will be an amount saved that can't be counted. I do not try to reconcile them but see both as truth. Few=undisclosed amount saved

In the end in our family what is important unity and no discord, some like to force feed people the way they see the scripture to people who are not wanted it. It is like given an infant a steak and say eat. What is important is that we draw near to God through Jesus Christ and listen and learn from Him and some times because we are all different people we may never see eye to eye and reach to the same point of our own maturity. Man and a women become one flesh even if part of who we are is weaker. It is amazing to me how these truths end up together in one body unfortunately cutting out the part we don't like or accept isn't the best answer.

To me what matters is that we should not let the truth God is leading us to through His word bring us to stop believing in Him and turn away from Him. We will have trials and tribulations in life and relationships but when we listen and learn through them and be thankful for it, it builds perseverance.

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

James 1

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:

Greetings.
Trials and Temptations
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verses 16 and 19; and in 2:1, 5, 14; 3:10, 12; 4:11; 5:7, 9, 10, 12, 19.] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.


There is a secure place that gives me no doubt where I will end up by trusting in Jesus and what He has done not in me and what I have done and my own understanding.

I want you to know my prayer always is for all of us is to be one in unity even with all our differences in Jesus Christ.
 
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Jeremiah2911

Member
Site Supporter
As the title says I am in need of alot of prayers and some advice. When I first came to the BB I was completely against Calvinism or DOG. I considered it heresy and denied it vehemently. In the time I have been here I have read the vast majority of the threads regarding the debate between C/A, and though I post little I do follow them intently. At first it was to try to learn different arguments against the Calvinist position, but about 6 months ago I started to see things in a different light. Now, though I admit there are many things I do not understand and I cannot always adequately explain what I think, I believe that the position commonly referred to as "Calvinism" to be the more correct view. Still studying and still praying but coming more and more to that conclusion. Here is my problem. My wife is ardently opposed to this view and sees it as "unfair" and not right. Which is exactly where I was before. Ther problem is that it is starting to cause some turmoil in my family. I have been able to avoid a direct confrontation until last night. One of my kids asked me a question concerning how God saves people and when I started to answer a small war broke out. This is not what I want in my family. At the same time I don't want to teach something that I no longer believe to be true. Again I freely admit that I am new to this and as a result still struggle with adequate explanations which probably escalated the problem. Any advice and especially prayers will be appreciated. Thanks
Brother as far as advice is concerned, the Bible says 1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:--and in many other places, we are taught that the Gospel is one of peace and love --in the hearts of true born again believers, there is no room for anger or bitterness towards another brother or sister....yes we may disagree on some points, but love, Christs love, is still our standard--in the home this is MOST IMPERATIVE! You and your wife are to be examples for the children, so make sure you both get on the same page in this way--we won't argue in front of the children--in fact, don't argue at all, just lovingly discuss Scriptures and pray over them....Most of us on here who are Calvinistic started the same way you did, and were where your wife is now--adamantly opposed to the DoG's.....but, in my opinion, anyone who truly studies the Bible and seeks truth cannot help but become Calvinistic.....My turning point was one day reading in the Gospel of John about the resurrection of Lazarus as I have and heard it many times since I was a kid, and reading where after Jesus raised him from the dead, some of the Jews believed, others went to tell the Pharisees what He'd done and they wanted to kill Him.....This is just a quick little illustration, but think about it....He raises a man from the dead--some believe on Him, some want to kill Him.....why wouldn't they ALL want to worship Him, accept Him, as Messiah?? Anyhow this was the straw that turned me towards the DoG's.....but when talking with your wife, and discussing salvation, you can still believe in "free will", because that's all we know......I truly believe "whosoever will may come" as the song says [paraphrase John 3.16]....But understand not everyone will, and I and all who are Calvinistic just trust that God Himself knows that whosoever will WILL come.....God bless
 
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