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Nephilim
- Thread starter BibleBob
- Start date
Jacob Webber
New Member
(Also, Jude says that the angels who left their former abode were locked into the "abyss"... I personally think that would be quite a deterrent for future occurrences of this happening.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.)
The Book of Enoch makes refrence to this that the Angels who left Heaven and made wives out of the daughters of men were immeditly cast into the Lake of Fire.
Were as the Angels and marriage doesn't it say the Angels in Heaven Mark 12:25 does this apply to the Fallen Angels on Earth. We know that Hebrew 1:14 could not apply to the Fallen Angels and Mark 12:25 specificly states the Angels in Heaven. I would asume it is because the Angels in Heaven are Obeying God were as the Fallen are not.
As far as Angels being given in
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.)
The Book of Enoch makes refrence to this that the Angels who left Heaven and made wives out of the daughters of men were immeditly cast into the Lake of Fire.
Were as the Angels and marriage doesn't it say the Angels in Heaven Mark 12:25 does this apply to the Fallen Angels on Earth. We know that Hebrew 1:14 could not apply to the Fallen Angels and Mark 12:25 specificly states the Angels in Heaven. I would asume it is because the Angels in Heaven are Obeying God were as the Fallen are not.
As far as Angels being given in
Marcia
Active Member
Since the Bible clearly says that angels are spirits, it seems reasonable to conclude that angels have a spirit body that is entirely different from ours. We know they are not human and do not have human bodies. Even the good angels who appeared in bodies did so only temporarily.
This idea of the fallen angels having relations with women reminds me of the medieval superstitious scare re the incubus and the succubus.
Marcia
Active Member
Why can't Jude 1.6 be talking about the angels who left heaven to go with Satan? These are referred to in Rev 13.
Jude 1.7 is a clear reference to the homosexuality of Sodom and Gomorrah. True, the men there wanted the angels, but they thought the angels were men. That was their sin (and these were good angels, still no support for fallen angels in bodies).
Jude is talking about how God punishes both angels and men because Jude 5 says:
The Book of Enoch is not credible and is not part of the canon of scripture so whatever it says, I take with a grain of salt. It has a lot of mythlike stuff in it.
I don't understand your point or question with Mark 12.
Jacob Webber
New Member
I wonder Paul told use to becareful how we threat people for we may be entertaining Angels which would be in Human form. I wonder if God allows the Fallen Angels to do the same to Temp use.
Marcia
Active Member
Paul's statement is probably a reference to when the angels and the Lord visited Abraham in his tent. This does not give any indication that we would be visited by fallen angels in human form. Fallen angels can tempt us just fine the way they are, however that works. And we are tempted probably far more by our own fleshly (i.e., from the sinful nature) desires.
Marcia
Active Member
Except that I think Rev 12.3 (not chapter 13 as I posted earlier) shows that 1/3 of the angels went with Satan (this is a common interpretation of this verse, not just my view). That was their fall, and I think that is what Jude 1.6 is talking about -- they left their home with God to follow Satan.
I know we can't settle this - it's one of those unclear issues but I just cannot swallow angels with spirit bodies being able to or being allowed to mate with human women. It seems to blur the line between spirit beings and humans, as Blackbird points out, and it seems totally illogical and mythical to me. I know that does not make it untrue, that's just my reaction.
Two assumptions here are confusing people
Problem #1 - Angels can't have sex since they are spirit beings.
Angelic beings can't marry. That's ALL the passage says. Nada about sexual activity. Angels DID have bodies, ate, even were accosted to have homosexual sex in Sodom.
Problem #2 - The beings in Genesis were angels.
Doesn't say that. It uses the broader term "sons of god". I believe that this particular group of spirit beings were DEMONS.
Demons are NOT fallen angels. Do a study (or look up one I did here a while back) on demons (lords, gods, satyrs, etc in the OT). These had vastly more power and were ALMOST like God.
Satan was the highest order of spirit being (cherub) in this spirit realm. Vastly more knowldge, power, etc than a simple "fallen angel".
Problem #1 - Angels can't have sex since they are spirit beings.
Angelic beings can't marry. That's ALL the passage says. Nada about sexual activity. Angels DID have bodies, ate, even were accosted to have homosexual sex in Sodom.
Problem #2 - The beings in Genesis were angels.
Doesn't say that. It uses the broader term "sons of god". I believe that this particular group of spirit beings were DEMONS.
Demons are NOT fallen angels. Do a study (or look up one I did here a while back) on demons (lords, gods, satyrs, etc in the OT). These had vastly more power and were ALMOST like God.
Satan was the highest order of spirit being (cherub) in this spirit realm. Vastly more knowldge, power, etc than a simple "fallen angel".
Jacob Webber
New Member
Dr. Bob
Problem ones major problem is we do not know this for sure, But we do know that when the Bible presents Angels before men such as Abraham they have Physical Bodies and they appear to be Male.
Second thou we have physical Bodies they will not go with us when we die. So we are Spirit for a while until we have our perfect Body.
It specificly mentions the Angels in Heaven are not married.
Third we now that Angels are called the Sons of God in Job and by Paul. So we have these two refrences pointing to Angels in the NT and OT. Job said that the Sons of God gathered before God and Satan was there with them.
Fourth Satan was a Fallen Angel. I do not think Cherubs are the highest order of Angels. That would be the Angels of Light such as Micheal and Gabriel. Remember Satan presents himself as an Angel of Light.
I think the Book of Enoch gives alot of insight into the events that happened. Althou we do not consider it Scripture some other Churches do. Enoch says there are 4 Angels of Light.
But again Marcia is correct this issue will mostly never be resolved until we get to Heaven and than we would be in so much awe of God we would forget about asking.
Problem ones major problem is we do not know this for sure, But we do know that when the Bible presents Angels before men such as Abraham they have Physical Bodies and they appear to be Male.
Second thou we have physical Bodies they will not go with us when we die. So we are Spirit for a while until we have our perfect Body.
It specificly mentions the Angels in Heaven are not married.
Third we now that Angels are called the Sons of God in Job and by Paul. So we have these two refrences pointing to Angels in the NT and OT. Job said that the Sons of God gathered before God and Satan was there with them.
Fourth Satan was a Fallen Angel. I do not think Cherubs are the highest order of Angels. That would be the Angels of Light such as Micheal and Gabriel. Remember Satan presents himself as an Angel of Light.
I think the Book of Enoch gives alot of insight into the events that happened. Althou we do not consider it Scripture some other Churches do. Enoch says there are 4 Angels of Light.
But again Marcia is correct this issue will mostly never be resolved until we get to Heaven and than we would be in so much awe of God we would forget about asking.
Wow. I start this topic and then don;t check on it for a day or so and it jas exploded into a very interesting discussion. I'm still pondering this issue and all these posts has given me alot to think about. Dr. Bob, would you mind posting a link to that study you are refering to that says demons are not fallen angels. I always thought they were. That they are not is a new idea to me. I'm curious to look into that.
God bless,
Bob
God bless,
Bob
In the course of looking for some into about thsi demon/fallen angel difference I found this article ona website that is somewhat related to the current topic. If need be I can start antoher topic, but if anyone else wants to read this and tell me what they think thatd be good. Personally I feel this guy is alittle out there although his points are interesting. Se what you think. http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/divine_council.htm
Marcia said "Since the Bible clearly says that angels are spirits, it seems reasonable to conclude that angels have a spirit body that is entirely different from ours."
Perhaps, but we really have no idea. Only assumptions.
Marcia said "This idea of the fallen angels having relations with women reminds me of the medieval superstitious scare"
The Bible is full of stories that seem superstitious and implausible.
Marcia said "The Book of Enoch is not credible and is not part of the canon of scripture so whatever it says, I take with a grain of salt. It has a lot of mythlike stuff in it."
True. However, it reveals to us what the common view at the time of the apostles was. The first time a non-fallen-angel-view was put forward was in about the fourth century A.D., to make the scriptures seem less mythlike to the rulers of that day.
Perhaps, but we really have no idea. Only assumptions.
Marcia said "This idea of the fallen angels having relations with women reminds me of the medieval superstitious scare"
The Bible is full of stories that seem superstitious and implausible.
Marcia said "The Book of Enoch is not credible and is not part of the canon of scripture so whatever it says, I take with a grain of salt. It has a lot of mythlike stuff in it."
True. However, it reveals to us what the common view at the time of the apostles was. The first time a non-fallen-angel-view was put forward was in about the fourth century A.D., to make the scriptures seem less mythlike to the rulers of that day.
Since we don't know for sure if these folks were angels or not we can't really say POSITIVE that they were and that they DID "cross breed" with humans!
And since the Bible doesn't "out and out" tell us---logic will have to assume that they were human for the reasons I have already given!
And since the Bible doesn't "out and out" tell us---logic will have to assume that they were human for the reasons I have already given!
I agree with Dr Bob's speculation.
Also, I have often contemplated the idea that demons and fallen angels are different "kinds" of beings.
"Nephalim" show up again post-flood and are destroyed by Joshua.
How did they get here the second time if everyone apart from Noah and family drowned (unless one of his family was nephalim, unlikely)? This proves (IMO) that they, although they can practice the act of reproduction in the bodies that they possess (even altering the human genetic struture at will), do not need the physical body to continue their existance.
I believe the Book of Revelation suggests a third appearing of the nephalim (speculation on my part).
HankD
Also, I have often contemplated the idea that demons and fallen angels are different "kinds" of beings.
"Nephalim" show up again post-flood and are destroyed by Joshua.
How did they get here the second time if everyone apart from Noah and family drowned (unless one of his family was nephalim, unlikely)? This proves (IMO) that they, although they can practice the act of reproduction in the bodies that they possess (even altering the human genetic struture at will), do not need the physical body to continue their existance.
I believe the Book of Revelation suggests a third appearing of the nephalim (speculation on my part).
HankD
blackbird said "And since the Bible doesn't "out and out" tell us---logic will have to assume that they were human for the reasons I have already given!"
No, logic will have us accept it as unclear and inconclusive as the reasons you gave were based on unprovable assumptions.
No, logic will have us accept it as unclear and inconclusive as the reasons you gave were based on unprovable assumptions.
See??? Its all speculation!!! Dr. Bob is guessing! HankD is speculating and Natters is assuming!! Well, so am I!! I am assuming that these people were so "corrupt" in their thinking that they would have to constantly think of new ways to "tinker" with the human genetic makeup.
To speculate half human/half demon species, readers would have to agree, sounds much more "far fetched" than speculating that some sinful humans got together and started thinking----"Well, lets seeeeeeee! Ummmmmm! If you pair this couple off and have them produce offspring----he's 6' 9" and weighs about 320lbs and she is 6'4" and weighs(blank #'s of)(pun intended here)----it would stand to reason that their offspring will come into the world "kinda sorta" looking like momma and daddy----
I contend that this Nephilim was some sort of early version of Hitler's "Aryan" race that went to the extreme in violent sinful deeds of the flesh.
Sounds like its less speculation than half human half demon---to which the demon would still have to be biologically fully human!
To speculate half human/half demon species, readers would have to agree, sounds much more "far fetched" than speculating that some sinful humans got together and started thinking----"Well, lets seeeeeeee! Ummmmmm! If you pair this couple off and have them produce offspring----he's 6' 9" and weighs about 320lbs and she is 6'4" and weighs(blank #'s of)(pun intended here)----it would stand to reason that their offspring will come into the world "kinda sorta" looking like momma and daddy----
I contend that this Nephilim was some sort of early version of Hitler's "Aryan" race that went to the extreme in violent sinful deeds of the flesh.
Sounds like its less speculation than half human half demon---to which the demon would still have to be biologically fully human!
Not necessarily, we have bona fide genetic human abnormalities which result in Down Syndrome, savantism, etc.
Genetic engineering could have been practiced by these "sons of God" on their human hosts to make use of the full capacity of the human brain.
It's not so far fetched anymore. Today mankind has cloned high order mammals.
The human genome has been mapped...
HankD