Never Discussed In Christian Circles

[Deacon]

One final matter. It was recently discovered by X-ray that I have a perfectly square tiny piece of something metallic deep in my left hip. This item is extremely thin and can be seen only from a "head on" shot. A sideways X-ray does not reflect it. The doctor accused me of being hit in combat by a small piece of shrapnel.

Curious! My guess is that it's a marker put there by the X-ray tech to distinguish right from left.
You can't tell the depth unless it's seen from the side.
A marker wouldn't be used with an x-ray from the side because you can easily distingush front from back.

Was there no follow-up? Change docs!

Rob

 

[Zenas]

This happens to me everytime I go to the Baptist Theology & Bible Study section of BB and theres another Cal/Arm thread.

Amen, Brother! :laugh:

 

[Zenas]

There are some answers to these issues of the paranormal, but for the most part there are not. We can pretty much rule out the reincarnation thing because scripture tells us we die once, and then the judgment. I raised that once with a disciple of Edgar Cayce and his reply was that scripture does allow for reincarnation because it tells us that John the Baptist was Elijah. When Cayce was a young man, he did not believe in reincarnation but as he became older he came to believe it, mainly because of the Elijah/John the Baptist connection.

As for psychic readings, UFO’s and extraterrestrials, we just don’t know enough to evaluate them. It seems clear to me that we are not to practice psychic readings and such (Deuteronomy 18:10), but it is less clear that these practices are fakery. The witch of Endor certainly got a correct reading from the dead Samuel. Moreover, I know that many of the modern psychic readings have proved to be correct and they are often far too specific to be merely coincidental. The work of the devil? Possibly, but by attributing these powers to Satan we tend to show him as omniscient and godlike. And this may be why paranormal phenomena are rarely discussed in Christian circles. (1) We don’t know enough about them to discuss them with any certitude, and (2) we know we should not practice these crafts.

I really think the jury is still out on UFO’s and extraterrestrials. Whether they are mentioned in scripture depends on whether you want to see them there. See Ezekiel 10, which reads a lot like many of the modern descriptions of UFO’s. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that men and angels are God’s only creatures, and we should not infer same on account of that silence. As for the remarks in previous posts about the pope, I don’t think he is on record as believing in extraterrestrials. He has said that if you want to believe in them it is all right.

 

[Winman]

I have seen UFOs several times in my life, and my entire family had an experience with the supernatural about 20 years ago. I will not go into details because very few believe these stories, and they tend to hurt your credibility. In some way I think that is their purpose, to discredit you and make you appear mentally unstable to others.

But I have learned this, do not dismiss all stories like this. I grew up in a very rational and scientific home, I did not believe in ghosts or UFOs. I believed as many here that people who made these reports were either crazy, wanted attention, or were simply mistaken in their observations. I do not believe that way anymore.

While it is probably true that the vast majority of these types of reports are made by people who are a little screwball, or who want attention, or are simply mistaken, there have been reports of UFOs by trained military and commercial pilots, and others trained in observation like police officers. So, to dismiss all these reports as crack-pots or mistaken is to deny reality. There have also been many reports of the supernatural by respected persons, I have had three pastors tell me some amazing stories about experiences with the supernatural. These pastors were all serious men with sound minds who do not make up stories. I believed them and still do.

I can understand why a person would be skeptical, that is exactly how I used to be myself, but no more. I don't believe every story I hear, or even most, but I don't automatically dismiss them either. I can't.

We have scripture that reports experiences like this, such as from Job.

Job 4:12 Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.
13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,
14 Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
15 Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:
16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,
17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?
20 They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.
21 Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.

If the scriptures say spirits appeared before men, then it is true.

 

[HAMel]

As for the remarks in previous posts about the pope, I don’t think he is on record as believing in extraterrestrials. He has said that if you want to believe in them it is all right.

The Vatican has taken a serious approach to gazing into the Heavens. Here's a link.

http://www.vaticanobservatory.org/

As for the Pope's official position on the matter, the last thing I heard was as posted. If there are ET's then the Church should consider it/them a new mission field.

 

[HAMel]

Winman, I am aware of a dedicated Baptist Pastor in Florida that witnessed an Unidentified Object late one night. He was in awe at how it performed while in flight. It didn't shake his beliefs at all but rather, just raised his curiosity.

 

[Thousand Hills]

I understand the point your making about this thread. Several years ago when I worked with youth, I was teaching a lesson and had a teenager ask me about how dinosaurs fit into the picture. Didn't have a good response for him, other than go ask the pastor (don't know if he ever did). To my knowledge he is not in church today, and I wonder if something like this was a stumbling block for him.

Would you have an answer now?

That was about 10 years ago, when I was in college, so I wasn't much older than the kid myself, of course that's no excuse. But, I've grown alot in the faith since then, and would hope I could do better if a similar situation arose. Science wasn't my thing then and it still isn't now, so I would likely point someone to Answers in Genesis. Its been a few years since I watched any of the Dr. Dino videos, and I know some here may not care for him, but I would likely point someone there as well.

Some people do an excellent job at engaging in debates with others on such subjects. But I don't feel that's my calling personally, I kind of take the stand of either you believe God's word or you don't. Sometimes I think people try to make God's word fit into their world view, when God's word should be our world view. Kind of like this quote from C.S. Lewis. "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

 

[revmwc]

That was about 10 years ago, when I was in college, so I wasn't much older than the kid myself, of course that's no excuse. But, I've grown alot in the faith since then, and would hope I could do better if a similar situation arose. Science wasn't my thing then and it still isn't now, so I would likely point someone to Answers in Genesis. Its been a few years since I watched any of the Dr. Dino videos, and I know some here may not care for him, but I would likely point someone there as well.

Some people do an excellent job at engaging in debates with others on such subjects. But I don't feel that's my calling personally, I kind of take the stand of either you believe God's word or you don't. Sometimes I think people try to make God's word fit into their world view, when God's word should be our world view. Kind of like this quote from C.S. Lewis. "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

Go to Job 40 and 41 see what you think is described here.

Second God created all living cretures in the beginning, so they existed pre-flood. Due to the atmospheric changes that occured due to the flood the dinasuars evently died off although some may still exist today. Loc Ness comes to mind.

 

[Winman]

Winman, I am aware of a dedicated Baptist Pastor in Florida that witnessed an Unidentified Object late one night. He was in awe at how it performed while in flight. It didn't shake his beliefs at all but rather, just raised his curiosity.

Thanks. I know what I saw, or rather I know what I saw was not. I grew up around air bases all my life as my father worked for the military as an aircraft radar technician. When I was young I was a real aircraft buff, I could probably identify any aircraft in service and tell you many details. I built literally hundreds of airplane models, I wanted to be a pilot. I have also been into astronomy all my life and can identify meteors, comets...

What I saw were not far away lights, but objects that appeared to be of intelligent design within several hundred feet of me. It was unmistakeable, and on one occasion another person was witness with me. They exhibited performance that none of our aircraft can perform to this day.

Now, you would think I would believe these were craft from another world, but I did not think that for one second. I believed and still believe that these were spiritual manifestations. I also believe the purpose of these craft is to deceive people which has been very successful.

As for curiousity, I would not advise anyone to be curious about these objects. I found them fascinating, but also very disturbing. When I was young I had many bad dreams because of what I saw.

 

[Tater77]

Hebrews 9:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,​

This is a remote possibility but what if, being sent back is a judgment? What if those who are saved pass on though to Heaven, but the unsaved who weren't totally deserving of hell were sent back. Such as one who never heard the Gospel thus no chance.


Ghosts are demons, plain and simple on that end. There is no such thing as a friendly spirit, they are all malicious.

 

[HAMel]

I'm drawn to the same Scripture as revmwc suggested, Job 40:15-24, when it comes to the dinosaurs.

 

[Winman]

I'm drawn to the same Scripture as revmwc suggested, Job 40:15-24, when it comes to the dinosaurs.

Oh yeah, dinosaurs lived with men until very recently, and may still survive in the Congo.

Google "dinosaurs in ancient art and literature". One site is called Ooparts (I believe) and shows hundreds of pieces of art depicting dinosaurs from many various civilizations. There is art from Babylon showing what we used to call the Brontosaurus, it has a different name now. Many believe this to be the "behemoth" spoken of in Job 40, with a tail like a cedar, and drank up rivers.

There are literally thousands of pieces of art depicting dinosaurs, often showing details that were not discovered by science until very recently.

There are also thousands of ancient accounts of dragons, which I believe were dinosaurs. These accounts come from civilizations all over the world, who often had no contact with each other.

So, to believe that dinosaurs did not co-exist with men is naive in my opinion.

 

[HAMel]

This is a remote possibility but what if, being sent back is a judgment? What if those who are saved pass on though to Heaven, but the unsaved who weren't totally deserving of hell were sent back. Such as one who never heard the Gospel thus no chance.

This was the position of Edward Casey. One kept coming back until they finally attained Salvation at which time they would not come back anymore. When the Lord comes the second time though, it's end of subject.

Bottom line is we face many mysteries in our world that often cannot just be pushed aside. None of us are capable of understanding the Lord to the fullest and I doubt any of us ever will.

It was always explained to me that God has always been and will always be. That's amazing just to think about!!!

 

[righteousdude2]

Good Post, HAMel!

You present some honest, candid questions as you reveal things about yourself that many try to push down and hide.

Let me say this about people who claim to have been vivid, proved accountings of past historical events. Have you noticed that most of these accounts are of something in history that can be traced back to and proven, which in turn, opens eyes, minds and hearts to believe the possibility?

This is the work of Satan and his minions. Remember, those little imps have been around since the creation of earth, and they have a lifetime of historical facts. It is not impossible for these demons to either possess, or oppress, the mind and spirit of living flesh, and cause them to see and believe they were actually in that place at that time.

What I find interesting is that none of the people claiming to have lived before with stories that are from mere, common folk without a traceable history. Who will remember any of us a thousand years from now? And if someone comes back and claims to be HAMel, it may not be that impressive to the living, at least not impressive enough to turn heads with that all important "Wow!" factor! Satan lives for sensationalism to sell his lies!

This is what fortune tellers live for. They can't tell the future, but they can gather things from a demonic source about the person paying for the fortune to be read, and wow and impress their socks off. From that info, they can make some pretty good guesses, about the future, but that is it. It is demonic, and there to trip up the average person.

The UFO's are another story. I have no explanation as to what many have claimed to see, but the devil does have the ability to form thoughts within the minds of man, and that could include seeing things that don't exist!

Haunted houses are nothing more than demons taking the form of people who have passed, again, to cause a stir, and discredit God.

I believe all you ask is relevant to the fact that Satan is out to deceive not only the individual, but the masses, and he uses whatever forms of lies he can conjure up to cause people to take their eyes off Jesus, create public contraversay, and present and plant those little seeds of doubt within the minds of people, which surely can be used to make mankind wonder if these things exist, and if they do, then how can the Bible or God be true?

De ja vu is best explained as memory getting caught up in the moment.

There is a thing called mass hyponosis, and I believe that Satan is the master of getting the masses to see, believe, and act upon things that he puts out there in an attempt to cause just enough doubt to keep the lost, lost! And the saved, questionning!

I hate to give Satan credit for anything, but, the truth is, he is alive and well, and doing his best to keep the highway to hell filled to beyond capacity!

One more thing that Satan is good at doing is causing believers not to believe that God can do supernatural things. He does not want believers to think that God is so awesome that He can have a fish swallow a wayward Jonah. Alternatively, be present in a fire with Shadrack, Meshak and Abendigo. Alternatively, that he could conquer death through the resurrection itself! The devil does not want believers to know that Angels are just as close and present as demons, and that these angelic beings are here to protect us, and do things within the supernatural realm.

There is so much that we will never understand until we close our eyes in the flesh and open our eyes in the spirit and presence of God. This is the awesome side of our Father, and I have no doubt in His superior abilities over evil, the devil, and his menacing minions!

If we as believers are supposed to believe everything in His Word, than we must also believe that there are constant efforts by the devil to thwart the work of the Father here on earth.

I believe God created the world, and all that we know and see around us. I believe everything the Bible teaches. I have no doubt in any of the fantastic things reported in the OT, and the New. And I, like you, believe that I am saved, my name is in the Lamb's book of life, and when I take my last breath, I'll be with my Lord. Everything else is merely there to trip us up, create a sliver of doubt, and shake our faith as much as it can.

Happy Resurrection Day, HAMel,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[HAMel]

You present some honest, candid questions as you reveal things about yourself that many try to push down and hide.

This was my intent. I would assume that many individuals have experienced situations as have the rest of us. Only difference is they don't want to openly admit it as they are afraid of criticism. Especially if what they experienced cannot be explained away by conventional means.

I believe that Satan is responsible for much that we have come to accept as eerie or spooky or otherwise, out of this world. I also believe that many Church Members, Pastors and Believers desire to dance around specific issues rather than addressing them head on. Generic sermons are what most are comfortable with.

How many of us are going to feel comfortable standing before the Lord..., by ourselves..., alone..., on judgement day? I suspect it's going to be a fearful time. What will we be able to say in our defense?

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

Pastor Paul, I disagree with you on one thing, you said that devil has power to make people see things in their mind. When I saw these objects I was a Christian, sealed by the Holy Spirit, I do not believe the devil can enter a Christian's mind.

No, the scriptures say the devil has the power to perform real miracles. When the devil took Jesus from the wilderness to the pinnacle of the temple, that was real. When he misquoted scripture and tempted Jesus to jump, that was real. If Jesus would have jumped, he would have been injured or killed, as he would have been doing Satan's will, not his Father's. That promise the devil quoted from Psalm's to send angels to protect us only applies when we are following God's will, the very part the devil conveniently left out of that scripture. The devil was not only tempting Jesus to tempt God, he was also trying to kill Jesus.

So, people are seeing real objects, only they are a physical manifestation of the spiritual. We see this throughout the OT, such as the angels that came into Lot's house and ate food (Gen 19:1-3). These angels were able to take on real material existence, they not only ate food, they pulled Lot back into his house (vs. 10).

So, people are not hallucinating, they are seeing real objects.

 

[revmwc]

Pastor Paul, I disagree with you on one thing, you said that devil has power to make people see things in their mind. When I saw these objects I was a Christian, sealed by the Holy Spirit, I do not believe the devil can enter a Christian's mind.

No, the scriptures say the devil has the power to perform real miracles. When the devil took Jesus from the wilderness to the pinnacle of the temple, that was real. When he misquoted scripture and tempted Jesus to jump, that was real. If Jesus would have jumped, he would have been injured or killed, as he would have been doing Satan's will, not his Father's. That promise the devil quoted from Psalm's to send angels to protect us only applies when we are following God's will, the very part the devil conveniently left out of that scripture. The devil was not only tempting Jesus to tempt God, he was also trying to kill Jesus.

So, people are seeing real objects, only they are a physical manifestation of the spiritual. We see this throughout the OT, such as the angels that came into Lot's house and ate food (Gen 19:1-3). These angels were able to take on real material existence, they not only ate food, they pulled Lot back into his house (vs. 10).

So, people are not hallucinating, they are seeing real objects.

Satan and His angels are able to take on any form, this would include the shape and lights seen as UFO's, look real but a deceptions by Satan and his demons. Not that they enter you mind.

 

[Tater77]

Im just gonna lay out my thoughts on each subject.

Reincarnation - Is possible, but only if it was judged for them to do so. But that would place hell as a place that you must be actually bad/evil to be sent to and Heaven for the saved only. Which is a comforting theory, but on a theory minus the saved going to heaven part, that being fact. While I cant rule this one out, I cant prove it. So its an open case file for me.

UFO - While I don't rule out the possibility that God could have created life on other planets, I have no proof otherwise. But I know for a fact that the government constantly tests out secret military aircraft, has been for decades. Most never make it to production and remain in the prototype phase for whatever reason, failure or something better came along. So I have to lean towards the latter on this.


Ghosts - These are demons and that falls into Scripture. The only way it can be otherwise is unless that time Saul spoke with the dead Samuel was more than just a one off to teach Saul a lesson.

 

[InTheLight]

Satan and His angels are able to take on any form, this would include the shape and lights seen as UFO's, look real but a deceptions by Satan and his demons.

Chapter and verse on this? In my readings of the Bible demons are only able to imitate or inhabit living things. I've never come across an instance in scripture where demons took on the form of an object but am willing to learn.