New Age Bibles

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ja, it doesn't help to talk in circles.

I'll speak of what I have studied, and so won't land in traps set where I don't know they are.

For example, if the NIV or any similar is the correct one in Mk15:42 and Mt27:57 (the example I began with), then the AV must be incorrect, and one has to admit contradiction. As I said, there are MANY in the same line and vane, which happens to be one of doctrine and tradition, and therefore subjective and emotional. (As clearly was seen in this thread).

My question is: WHY is it impossible to find the like discrepancies between pre- 'new age' era (English and other) Translations and Versions?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Elder Gerhard Ebersoehn: // For example, if the NIV or any similar is the correct one in Mk15:42 and Mt27:57 (the example I began with), then the AV must be incorrect, and one has to admit contradiction. //

That comes from a logical presumption: if there is a difference between two Bibles, then there has to be a flaw in one of the Bibles. This leads to conclusion that the Lead Devil has whipped up on the Lord and flawed God's Holy Written Word.

I choose to make a logical presumption:
​

All VALID English Language Bibles
Collectively and Individually
contain and are
the Inerrant and Perfect
Written Word of God
preserved by Divine Appointment
for the generation in which they are translated.

This presumption leads to the conclusion that if there appears to be difference between two versions that God has used it to preserved His Written Word. The Lord has Given His Holy Spirit to guide individual Priests of God and groups of Priests of God to figure out what truth God was providing.

One presumption leads to the damnation of God's other Bibles; the other presumption let's what has happened (it wasn't my fault nor your) be used to preserve the Written Word of God.



​

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mark 15:42 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath) ...

Then Jesus dead body was given to his friends to be buried hastily because it was the day before Sabbath

Mark 15:42 (NIV):
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,

Mat 27:57-62 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And when the euen was come, there came a riche man of Arimathea, named Ioseph, who had also himselfe bene Iesus disciple.
58 He went to Pilate, and asked ye body of Iesus. Then Pilate commanded ye body to be deliuered.
59 So Ioseph tooke the body, and wrapped it in a cleane linnen cloth,
60 And put it in his new tombe, which he had hewen out in a rocke, and rolled a great stone to the doore of the sepulchre, and departed.
61 And there was Marie Magdalene, and the other Marie sitting ouer against the sepulchre.
62 Nowe the next day that followed the Preparation of the Sabbath, the hie Priestes and Pharises assembled to Pilate,

Matthew 27:57-62 (NIV):
As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb. 62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate

I don't see any significant diffrerence betweent he two pasages nor between the two versions.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
Quoting NIV:
"So as evening approached, "

Here you quote certainly one of the most glaring corruptions of the Greek text - no matter which! There's no discrepancies here between manuscripts whatsoever. Only the 'translation' is no translation at all but the wilful rape of the text.
What, do you think either of the NIV and AV's translators were such fools not as to have recognised the precise nature and requirements of the Greek? Since when does the Aorist have the function, application and meaning of the Imperfectum or continuous Present Tense? And that by using a Participle? There is no comparison or compromise to be found between these two translations; they are absolutely exclusive in meaning and method, the AV the honourable and the NIV a shame.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards quoting:
"62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day"

GE:
This to an extent is acceptable; 'the next day' can mean 'the next morning' - the exact rendering.

While you or no one else have a problem in recognising 'the next day' in this verse, how come you are so oblivious to the dividing break between a past and a new day so explicitly defined in Mk15:42 and Mt27:57?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:

"Mark 15:42 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath) ...

Then Jesus dead body was given to his friends to be buried hastily because it was the day before Sabbath"

GE:
The inverted commas, I put there. You did not. You 'quote' as were the words "Then Jesus dead body was given to his friends to be buried hastily because it was the day before Sabbath" those of Matthew!
Again, what could I recompense you with for not only supplying us with this most valuable information, but, kindly, also the source? For it is neither Matthew or anything near any of the Gospels! Give us the verse, where you read, Then Jesus dead body was given to his friends to be buried hastily because it was the day before Sabbath"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Let me explain nearer:
I have said before, no translation since the AV had strictly been a translation from 'the original', but every one, was 'translated' with the AV back in the mind of each and every translator.
In the NIV's rendering of Mk15:42 it is illustrated and proved beyound a doubt. I for no moment believe the translators had one look at the Greek - which in any case have ALL manuscripts the same - they knew the KJV and did not want to say what it says; they wanted it to say what they wanted it to say.
Their knowledge or lack of knowledge of the Greek and the manuscripts played NO PART; only prejudice = 'dynamic equivalent'

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Once upon a time there was a poor plumber who sat in the back pew of the Church and read the Bible put in the holder before him. It was the NIV. He was a backbush Boertjie from the farm out of the Old Transvaal - what did he know about translations and things like that? Zero! He could scarcely read English ( and to this day still struggles to speak English). But it struck him nevertheless, But this is not what I have read in my 'Ou Afrikaanse Vertaling'?

NOW WHO IS THE OBTRUSIVE? the Boertjie or the 'translators'? Who 'discovered and revealed secrets'? The bushvelder or the orders of the round tables of the Biblehouses?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"if there appears to be difference between two versions that God has used it to preserved His Written Word. "

GE:
This is how for you, Ed Edwards, the apparent difference does not mean "that God has used it to preserve His Written Word", but that the differing Version has replaced the Written Word of God.
But it is true, yes, I Amen your observation, that 'if there appears to be difference between two versions that God has used it to preserve His Written Word' --- through contrast and attack!
It is most noble principle, 'if there appears to be difference between two versions that God has used it to preserve His Written Word' -- and it works BOTH ways! God's true Word does not necessarily jump from the former to the next version; it resides in the one that is correct, or in both if both are correct. The Word of God has been tested and refined throughout its history, and each time it is put through the furnace shall come out the purer -- or mixed somehow with some dross. But some people don't think so, and reckon the smelting process is done only to make the casting or plying of the gold into an idol the easier.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Then Jesus dead body was given to his friends to be buried hastily because it was the day before Sabbath

This is a sentence that I wrote. It is a summary of the verses after Mark 15:42.

I copied & pasted the verses both from the Geneva Bible (old Bible) and the NIV (new Bible) both passages. I see no significant differences from the old Bible and the new Bible; or between the verses.

In my opinion, made from studying these scriptures and other scrputres in about a dozen differend English versions, this is what happened:

On what we would call Wednesday early in the afternoon Jesus Died. His body was removed from the cross, given to Joseph of Arimathea, and put in Joseph's tomb BEFORE THE SUN SET. This is hour zero.

Jesus was in the tomb and/or heaven & hell for the next 72-hours:

6PM to MIDNIGHT Wednesday - 6 hours
MIDNIGHT to MIDNIGHT Thursday - 24 hours
MIDNIGHT TO MIDINGHT Friday- 24 hours
MIDNIGHT TO 6PM Saturday -16 hours
-------------------------- total 72 hours = 3x24 hours

It was the spring, the sunset was about 2 minutes earlier each evening
at what we would call 6PM Saturday it was 6 minutes before sun set. Sometime after 6PM (but before 7PM) Jesus was raised from the dead by God - the personal resurrection of Jesus which pre-figures our own resurrection.

The first visit to the tomb was about 3AM (dawn wasn't until about 6AM - several visits to the empty tomb were made before dawn).

Saturday was the regular weekly Sabboth.
Thursday was a High Sabboth related to the Passover celebration.

Lev 23:38 (Geneva BIble, 1599 Edition):
Six daies shall worke be done, but in the seuenth day shalbe the Sabbath of rest, an holie conuocation: ye shall do no worke therein, it is the Sabbath of the Lord, in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feastes of the Lord, and holie conuocations, which yee shall proclaime in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the first moneth, and in the fourteenth day of the moneth at euening shalbe ye Passeouer of the Lord.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of this moneth shalbe the feast of vnleauened bread vnto the Lord: seuen dayes ye shall eate vnleauened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day yee shall haue an holy conuocation: ye shall do no seruile worke therein.
Lev 23:8 Also ye shall offer sacrifice made by fire vnto the Lord seuen daies, and in the seuenth day shalbe an holie conuocation: ye shall do no seruile worke therein.


"holy convocation" = special sabboth day

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Consider, "On what we would call Wednesday early in the afternoon Jesus Died."

GE: I don't care "what we would call .... early in the afternoon": It was precisely MID-afternoon, "the ninth (Jewish) hour" = 3pm.
You, saying, "early in the afternoon" is YOU, creating time for the IMPOSSIBILITY to have Jesus also buried before the sun would set.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

From book 1/2, 'Burial', http://www.biblestudents.co.za, one introductory example:
"

5.2.1.2.​

Afternoon After Christ’s Death –

The Nature and Consequences of Events​

Which Marked the End of this Day​

5.2.1.2.1.1.
Supernatural Events

“The miraculous signs which accompanied our Lord’s death – the darkness from twelve o’clock to three, the earthquake, the rending of the temple veil … struck myriads with awe and astonishment, and perhaps smoothed the way for our Lord’s burial in Joseph’s tomb, without opposition or objection.” Ryle’s Expository Thoughts, 4, p.326d
Although we differ greatly and in almost every respect with Ryle on how these “signs” effected “our Lord’s burial”, p.327a we would stress our agreement with him that these phenomena eventually contributed to a most important fact, the fact that Jesus was buried “without opposition or objection”. In order to have had this result, these “signs” had had to be of singular nature and of immense effect. The phenomena which accompanied Jesus’ death, seldom, if ever, receive due consideration in commentaries. No exception of greater significance though, can be found in Schilder’s Trilogy. Part Three, Christ Crucified, Chapter 16, translated by Henry Zylstra, Paideia Press “In all Lenten literature known to me there is no work comparable to the trilogy of Klaas Schilder.”
Luke records a darkness that lasted from noon till 3 p.m., that is, for the last three of the six hours Jesus lived in death’s agony on the cross. Three hours, in the Gospels’ record of Jesus’ crucifixion, were exactly of three hours’ duration in modern time reckoning. The Jewish light day always had twelve hours, all year round. That implied a shorter hour in middle winter than in middle summer. But Passover coincided with beginning of springtime, exactly the fourteenth and fifteenth days after the first new moon after equinox – that is, Passover coincided with the first night of full moon after equinox. “It is a night to solemnly observe”. The hours would be of equal length day and night, the days being as long as the nights. So three hours – exactly – were left of day when of a sudden the strange darkness ended."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

5.2.2.1.6.1.​

Only Joseph?

The verb ehren is singular – only Joseph “brought” Jesus to his place. Again the soldiers could have helped – they were obliged to. The singular verb indicates that Joseph, even with help from the soldiers, was solely responsible for bringing Jesus’ body away from the cross and to his abode. This must also have been the guard’s last presence at the cross. The soldiers and the guard are not heard of again till a watch is newly appointed at the grave on Saturday morning. If the body had been taken down while everybody else was present, they surely would have co-operated and it would not have been recorded that Joseph only did it. “They” would have taken down, and the verb would have been plural.
John says that “they”, plural, “prepared the body” – Joseph and Nicodemus. But in all the Gospels it is said that only Joseph – singular – “took the body down” and “removed” it. If John had been with Joseph, or the women, these verbs would have been in the plural, for they without doubt would have co-operated with Joseph. The fact that the singular occurs has literal implication – only Joseph was responsible for taking down and removing the body. And this implication has the further unavoidable implication, that the cross was desolated, from “everybody returned”, till the soldiers and Joseph “arrived” to “remove” the crosses and the bodies. They returned “because it was the Preparation”, and “evening already”.
Joseph asks for the body on his own. Only he as responsible person takes it down and removes it – all singular verbs. Only Joseph is eyewitness to the piercing of Jesus’ side. Later Joseph’s only helper “came (there)”. Then they, he and Nicodemus, “handle” the body, “treating” it to “Jewish ethics”. They “wrap” it – with the view “to bury” the body in Joseph’s new grave. The only explanation for the plural in John is that Joseph and Nicodemus were responsible for the preparation of the body for interment. There is only one explanation for the singular in the Synoptists for the different procedures of preparation for burial of the body where John has the plural. They do not mention Nicodemus’ collaboration. They do mention the women – who had no part in the preparation of the body for entombment.
Neither the women, nor John, could have been present with the taking down and removal of the body. Neither of them could have been present when the body was prepared for interment. In all the Gospels their absence in person and action in the narration of these events is as obvious as the absence of the names. The women’s absence during these procedures, and their presence at the entombment – while still the absence of John or any other is as obvious as before – imply another occasion after passage of the night following the day of crucifixion.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Evening was after sunset and Joseph must have had time considerably longer than just an hour and twenty minutes. He had enough time to do all these things; in fact, he had until the following day about 3 p.m., well ‘before sunset’. Mk15:42 and Mt27:57 have no ‘between’, nor “two evenings”, but ‘opsia’, singular. So does any day have one undividable evening, always from sunset until dark, which when Joseph appeared on the scene, had already begun. ‘Evening’, even ‘considered to be between sunset and dark”, is still ‘evening’ after sunset, not “before sunset”. To make Joseph and the women start after 3 pm, “do all these things”, “go home and prepare spices”, “and still finish before sunset” or forty minutes later, is not even comical. The Greek word here used, opsía, without exception means the early part of night after sunset before deep night (6 to 7.30 maybe 8 pm)— fifteen times without exception in the NT! Mark and Matthew say “evening already had begun” and that “it was the Preparation”. Mark says “the Preparation which is the Fore-sabbath”, that is to say, Friday. John says Joseph did so “after these things”, 19:38, referring to “The Jews (who) therefore because it was the Preparation (now), that the bodies should not on the sabbath day remain upon the cross because that sabbath would be a great day— asked Pilate to have the legs of the crucified broken.” Jn19:31. The Sixth Day was beginning; it was after sunset at night now, and the “great day” of Passover-“sabbath”, prospective. Cronin’s theory of a day in between the burial and resurrection of Jesus, ignoring about every mentioned fact of the Gospels, presumes Jesus was crucified as well as buried before this ‘sabbath’, and was resurrected on the day after it. We maintain in contrast, Jesus was crucified before the ‘Great Day’-sabbath of Passover, was interred, on it, and rose from the dead, after it, “On the(weekly)Sabbath Day”.


‘It was a Great Day the day of that sabbath’, ‘ehn megáleh heh hehméra ekéínou tou sabbátou’. ‘The Great Day-sabbath’ was so called because it was the Passover-sabbath of Nisan 15, not because it concurred with the weekly Sabbath. It without a day in between, preceded the weekly Sabbath. In other words, Friday was Nisan 15 in the year of the crucifixion, not Nisan 14, because on Nisan 14 the Passover-sacrifice was slaughtered, and the next day of Nisan 15, was eaten and its remains returned to the earth. Now Jesus on this ‘Great Day-sabbath’ was buried— on the very “Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath”; “There laid they Jesus because of the Jews’ Preparation”— ‘The Preparation Day’ of and for the weekly Sabbath.



Cronin:
"When evening had come..." Joseph of Arimathea walked from Golgotha to Pilate (presumably at the Praetorium) to ask of him the body of Jesus (Matt 27:57-58, Mark 15:42- 43, Luke 23:50-52, John 19:38).

Incorrect! “walked from Golgotha”— Nobody remained at Golgotha; “everybody returned”, says Luke. We don’t know from where “Joseph came”.

Cronin:
Pilate investigated the death of Jesus, to find "if he had been dead for some time" (Mark 15:44), and granted Joseph his request (Matt 27:58, Mark 15:45, John 19:38. Joseph went to buy "fine linen" — presumably in Jerusalem (Mark 15:46).

For the exact order of Joseph’s actions – he first took the body down, and then removed it from the place of the crucifixion to the place he could “treat the body”, and then only, must have gone out to buy the linen. The implication is, Joseph did not immediately and at the cross, prepare or bury the body of Jesus.

Cronin:
He then walked back to Golgotha to retrieve the body.

Joseph then walked back to the place he had taken the body to for safekeeping and preparation – probably where he stayed for the Passover; it isn’t recorded; we correctly may assume it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Cronin:
He and Nicodemus (John 19:39) "Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen cloths with the spices..." (John 19:40, Matt 27:59), "and laid it in his [Joseph's] own new tomb" (Matt 27:60, Mark 15:46, Luke 23:53, John 19:39-42).

Here you put together two events that in fact had been separated by quite a few hours and the going under of the sun! Although the text in Mark and Matthew mentions different things in one breath, it does not mean they happened simultaneously. John e.g., mentions Nicodemus’ arrival at the scene of Joseph’s preparation of the body some good part of the night after Joseph’s initial request for and removal of the body. The preparation was properly done “according to the Jewish usage”, and must have taken Joseph – and later on also Nicodemus – the whole night! This brings us to the two things I say you should have separated instead of have put together: They are: “... (they) wound it in linen cloths with the spices...", and "... laid it in his [Joseph's] tomb”. Most part of night, and good deal of day, separated Joseph’s first initiatives and the finishing of his undertaking.

Cronin:
"And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on" (Luke 23:54, John 19:42).

Here we have the last word on Jesus’ burial, “as the sun (“light” – fohs) was sinking towards (the west), the Sabbath approaching” – epéfohsken sábbaton— not of his death. The weekly Sabbath approached. You in the wrong place make it the ‘Great Day’-sabbath of Passover that was prospective; you confuse Mk15:42 and Mt27:57 for this place, Lk23:53-56. But see Lk23:48-49 which you have overlooked! In Lk23:53-56 it is the immediate day before “the Sabbath according to the Commandment” – the weekly Sabbath, that was running out. You seem to have forgotten that you yourself have shown how on the day before, after the crucifixion and after “the evening had come”, Joseph only had begun his undertaking, so that, by the time he – the next day – had finished, “it was the preparation, and / while the sabbath drew on”— “that day”, had been, the burial; which implies, crucifixion had had happened the day before, and was, the Thursday.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

These are only a few examples to show you how wrong you are Jesus could have been buried the afternoon that He died.

I could go on with many more arguments against your proposition, but would mention just one more, the very important use by Luke of the word 'hypostrephoo' - "EVERYBODY RETURNED", in fact, fled from and deserted the scene of the cross and NOBODY returned until JOSEPH after the night had fallen, had asked Pilate for the body.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I mention these things, not to make 'my point' merely, but to show the PASSOVER_SIGNIFICANCE of the fact Jesus had to have been buried on the day AFTER the day He as the Passover Lamb of God had been slaughtered. EVERY aspect of Jesus suffering, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection, had to be, "according to the Scriptures" SO THAT Christ "according to the Scriptures had to be raised from the dead, "THE THIRD DAY".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now it having been "MID-afternoon" on Friday "before the Sabbath" that Joseph had Jesus BURIED, this exact time of "daylight" and the exact 'day' ARE BEING GIVEN literally: "Epefohsken sabbaton". Lk23:56.
Now observe: THIS, is the EXACT time of "daylight" BEING GIVEN literally for when Jesus DIED: "the ninth hour".

How could death have set in, "the ninth hour" AND Joseph have closed the grave, precisely the ninth hour? It is most insane notion!

Now further consider, that the Gospels thus have twice given us the exact time of day, and the day, of and for two of the essential moments of Jesus' making atonement for sin; and also, in actual fact, further have given us the exact moment of day and the day involved, for the third and finishing essential moment of Jesus' making atonement for sin! And guess what, WHICH time of day would that be? The very same! Yes, 3 pm, which is, 'epi-fohs-k-ous-ehi'!! THREE TIMES the exact same moment of "daylight it being", which is "MID-afternoon", "BEFORE the First Day" --- NOT, when it was neither the Sabbath or the First Day when the sun set, but three hours before the sun set. THREE TIMES literally GIVEN, 'WRITTEN', dear Ed Edwards, "WRITTEN"!!!!


HOW: "Epefohsken sabbaton". GIVEN

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"His body was removed from the cross, given to Joseph of Arimathea"

GE:
Joseph removed the body from the cross, and then removed it from the scene of the cross, and later brought it back to nearby the scene of the cross to there bury it. Joseph removed the body as I have shown above.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"put in Joseph's tomb BEFORE THE SUN SET"

GE:
Sure! As it is written, "mid-afternoon"; BUT, not on the afternoon He was crucified and died, nor, two days after, but the day after, "according to the (PASSOVER) Scriptures", Ex12:10.