new book on Covenant Theology

[Amy.G]

I have to get ready for school, so let me answer the last one first. We are right now in the new heavens and the new earth. Please look for that phrase as it is found throughout the Bible, especially in Isaiah and then work your way through Paul's and John's use of the same phrase and - in Paul's case - some of the same OT passages.

When did the earth become new? We live on a dying, decaying planet among evil people, murderers, rapists, thieves, adulterers, sodomites. How can you possibly believe this is our reward???? And when did God destroy the old earth with fire?

This is why people say Preterism offers no hope. If this is all there is, then I would rather just die and be worm food.

 

[asterisktom]

How can you possibly believe this is our reward????

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I do not believe that is our reward.

 

[asterisktom]

When did the earth become new? We live on a dying, decaying planet among evil people, murderers, rapists, thieves, adulterers, sodomites. How can you possibly believe this is our reward???? And when did God destroy the old earth with fire?

This is why people say Preterism offers no hope. If this is all there is, then I would rather just die and be worm food.

I inadvertently erased my longer post.

I don't know why you think Preterism offers no hope? It only offers no hope to those who want to cling the physicl things of this world. But our real blessings are spiritual and invisible. Paul wrote:

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2nd Cor. 4:17-18

As far as "When did the earth become new?": Like I wrote earlier, you need to understand how the Bible uses a phrase. Study out the occurrences of "new heavens and earth". You may be surprised. Of course, you will not be surprised if just superimpose upon that phrase what we have been taught to think about it.

Notice especially the cross-references between Isaiah and Revelation.

 

[thomas15]

...."For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2nd Cor. 4:17-18

Given the fact that much if not all of creation is physical it is up to you to prove that something that we cannot presently see now is "spiritual" in the sense that we think we understand "spiritual". I say this partly because the New Jerusalem noted in the Bible has physical dimensions and physical features. I know of no Christian that doesn't pray that his physical needs be met, maybe you do though.

Is not what you are advocating reading the teaching of Plato into the Scriptures?

 

[asterisktom]

Given the fact that much if not all of creation is physical it is up to you to prove that something that we cannot presently see now is "spiritual" in the sense that we think we understand "spiritual". I say this partly because the New Jerusalem noted in the Bible has physical dimensions and physical features. I know of no Christian that doesn't pray that his physical needs be met, maybe you do though.

Is not what you are advocating reading the teaching of Plato into the Scriptures?

I'm quoting Paul, not Plato.

Of course I pray for people's physical needs, as well as spiritual.

I think I'll just forget this thread. I can see already it will be a tiresome one where I will have to parry asinine asides like yours.

 

[asterisktom]

Given the fact that much if not all of creation is physical it is up to you to prove that something that we cannot presently see now is "spiritual" in the sense that we think we understand "spiritual". I say this partly because the New Jerusalem noted in the Bible has physical dimensions and physical features.

Out of all the "New Jerusalem" passages, the only one that describes dimensions is in the same book that has an Angel with pillars for legs.

 

[Yeshua1]

What about the resurrection? New heavens and new earth?

being a full pretierists, He would hold to Jesus return in AD 70, by ushering in the new heavens/earth in a spiritual sense, when god judged isreal, and destroyed the temple, so that ever since than be in age of messiah, in the Millinium so to speak, andonce we die now, ALL have a spiritual resurrection, not a physical one!

 

[thomas15]

I think I'll just forget this thread. I can see already it will be a tiresome one where I will have to parry asinine asides like yours.

Have a blessed day Tom!

 

[asterisktom]

Have a blessed day Tom!

I did. Thanks. Every day here is blessed.

 

[humblethinker]

Is not what you are advocating reading the teaching of Plato into the Scriptures?

I've not read AsteriskTom's posts to which you are referring to but I do say that Plato's influence is very strong particularly in Calvinistic thought.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've not read AsteriskTom's posts to which you are referring to but I do say that Plato's influence is very strong particularly in Calvinistic thought.

I think more accurate to say pauls influence hugh in it!

 

[thomas15]

I've not read AsteriskTom's posts to which you are referring to but I do say that Plato's influence is very strong particularly in Calvinistic thought.

Not so much Calvinistic thought but rather as in covenant theology and more so with the preterists.

 

[thomas15]

I did. Thanks. Every day here is blessed.

One way to increase such blessing:

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 1:3

 

[asterisktom]

One way to increase such blessing:

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 1:3

Yes, the time was indeed near - almost 2000 years ago. It can either be "near" now or "near" then. It cannot be both, or words cease to have meaning.

And to whom was this message of nearness written? The seven churches, as the very next verse tells us. None of those churches exist anymore. Yet the message they were given was that the time was "near" that He would "come with the clouds".

Were, say, the Thyatirans lied to? Misled? No, they were given the gospel truth.

 

[thomas15]

Yes, the time was indeed near - almost 2000 years ago. It can either be "near" now or "near" then. It cannot be both, or words cease to have meaning.

And to whom was this message of nearness written? The seven churches, as the very next verse tells us. None of those churches exist anymore. Yet the message they were given was that the time was "near" that He would "come with the clouds".

Were, say, the Thyatirans lied to? Misled? No, they were given the gospel truth.

Actually *tom, since the 7 churches did not heed to warning to fufill their mission (to make disciples of the nations) and allowed unsound doctrine and lost the love of Christ they were judged. Good advice for us today as we are not fufilling that same exact mission. Preterism, by trying to make the claim that Jesus already returned and thus those who believe this way are not looking for the blessed return of the Savior, taking away the urgency and placing the church in sleep mode.

 

[asterisktom]

Actually *tom, since the 7 churches did not heed to warning to fufill their mission (to make disciples of the nations) and allowed unsound doctrine and lost the love of Christ they were judged. Good advice for us today as we are not fufilling that same exact mission. Preterism, by trying to make the claim that Jesus already returned and thus those who believe this way are not looking for the blessed return of the Savior, taking away the urgency and placing the church in sleep mode.

Where do get any of this about the seven churches that they were judged - all of them - for not making disciples of all nations? Certainly not the Bible.

Christ said that it would be "near", not "near if" or "not near if". The supposed failure of all seven churches is a fiction, not found in the Bible.

And for Preterism lulling people to sleep, this is also bogus. We say that Christ's kingdom is now, that we are citizens of heavenly Zion.

Half the virgins slept when they waited. None of them slept when the Bridegroom had come. None were lulled to sleep.

 

[thomas15]

*tom

2 thess ch 2 vs 1-4

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Who *tom is the man of lawlessness and in context define his actions. Define the apostasy. Did he take his seat before or after the Temple was wrecked?

 

[kyredneck]

*tom

2 thess ch 2 vs 1-4

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him....

Post #61 concerning the coming of Christ, you provided no rebuttal. Christ DID come in judgment upon 'that generation' AD66-70. The passage you quote most likely was written between 52-54 AD, 20 plus years earlier.

.... that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.....

I appreciate the ponit made here:

"The mistake the Thessalonians made was not in thinking the day of the Lord was about to come; rather, it was in thinking it had already come. How could this be? Paul taught clearly that the day of the Lord and the parousia were essentially simultaneous (2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:1-8). The fact that the Thessalonians believed the day of the Lord had come indicates that Paul’s teaching on the Second Coming differed significantly from that of most present-day eschatological scenarios. For example, if Paul were a current-day pre-tribulation dispensationalist, he would have corrected the Thessalonians in a very different manner than he did. He might have argued that if the day of the Lord had already come, they all should have been physically raptured to heaven by now (cf. 1 Thess. 4:16-17). Since this had not happened then obviously the day of the Lord had not arrived yet.

Instead of answering in the above manner, Paul simply provides two events that needed to transpire before the Second Advent occurred. First, a falling away (“rebellion,” NRSV) had to take place. In response to this, the man of lawlessness—the Antichrist—would be revealed (2 Thess. 2:3). Soon thereafter, the parousia would happen (2 Thess. 2:8). Again, Paul nowhere makes the argument that the saints would have already been raptured to heaven if the day of the Lord had begun."

Read the article, it might do you some good.

[edit to add] This article is as good as any I've read concerning this 'man of sin'. John of Gischala was one of the tyrants that wrecked so much destruction upon his own people, and he and his cohorts did indeed take over the temple and used it as a base to wreck their havoc upon the people. What transpired among them was literally pure lawlessness and mayhem.:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html

Who the restrainer was is not clear to me. It could well have been an angel such as Michael who restrained that 'band of angels of evil' until the time came, or it could have been a man as this article suggests (See http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1701486&postcount=58 )

 

[thomas15]

Post #61 concerning the coming of Christ, you provided no rebuttal. Christ DID come in judgment upon 'that generation' AD66-70. The passage you quote most likely was written between 52-54 AD, 20 plus years earlier.

You are correct when you shout in large font crayon color letters that the entire modern preterist position falls apart if the book of Revelation was written after AD 70 as is the position of 2000 years of church history and theological development. You are also correct that I didn't offer a rebuttal, which is of course unnecessary here because the Biblical details in the preterist scenerio don't satisfy their theology so why should I?

You pal *tom makes the claim that since the book of Revelation is apocalyptic drama we cannot be certain of any details but this doesn't seem to stop you from being dogmatic with regards to certain events which you think support your position.

 

[Yeshua1]

*tom

2 thess ch 2 vs 1-4

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Who *tom is the man of lawlessness and in context define his actions. Define the apostasy. Did he take his seat before or after the Temple was wrecked?

Well... Who is the restrainer who kept him from coming?

Who was the Antichrist that appeared, and when did jesus destroy him at His second coming/his presense doing that?

Either he did it spiritually, alal JW and jesus returning, or else it happened in history, but no one was around to record it?