New Calvinist Paradigm?

[skypair]

Bro. Bob,

So, when the Lord said to preach "repent ye" the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, He was just rambling on and on? Instead of putting repentance in them He said for them to repent but He really didn't mean it, is that what you went down and let the Calvinist teach you? :laugh: :laugh:

Well, 2 issues with your post: 1) "The kingdom of Heaven" is NOT now at hand. Did you know that? The "kingdom of heaven" is Christ's kingdom. It was here; it will be here (MK); it's not here just now. 2) I'm guessing that -- since I don't have your reference -- there was a little more to it than that to what He said. You're just trying to be sarcastic, right? Cause I don't get your point. Wouldn't they still have to hear and believe Him?

skypair

 

[skypair]

webdog,

I agree with much of your post except for this. The ability to have faith and repent are instilled within ALL men, in the same sense all men can "hear", as you stated.

I am still examining this. Do you have scripture for that? I agree with you 100% --- we are NOT "totally unable" as Calvinists believe.

skypair

 

[skypair]

npetreley,

Let's change that to John 3:16's "whosoever believes", which still has the word "whosoever" in it, and you should be able to see that this "invitation" has nothing to do with man's will.

As you stated above, faith is GIVEN by God. It does not originate in man. Therefore when John says "whosever believes", he is simply identifying those people who -- thanks ONLY to the grace of God -- believe. This same concept applies to "whosever will". It refers to those who will, and their will to come has its origin in God, not in man.

Let's DON'T replace words so cavallierly. My thought is that, yes, God gives uf the will by the "filling" of the Holy Spirit IF we first believe. Think back to when you were saved --- your will was suddenly to do God's will, right? To obey God. Do you understand "filling" of the Spirit as the Spirit controlling your mind-emotions-will temporarily?

I guess I like "whosoever will [believe]." That will perhaps put the "belief" part in the proper perspective for me. How about you? Isn't the gospel considered "common grace" available to all? Yes, it is God's Spirit that is the "motive power" to actually repent for those who believe.

I find the issue you raise very critical for some Calvinists because they view belief as EQUAL TO faith. Not in this paradigm. If you want, I'll demonstrate why not.

skypair

 

[skypair]

AndyT,

Same faith? So the demons (2:19) have the same faith as one who is saved?

You bring up a critical issue: belief vs. faith

The demons "believe and tremble." So do those in hell (re: the rich man vs. Lazarus, Luke 16). BUT it was not given by God for them to have faith, right? But it IS given to we living to have faith if we believe.

Rom 3:22 -- "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:..."

Gal 3:22 -- "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."
Do you see the scriptural distinction between "belief" and "faith?"

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Is it possible to have a part in the Kingdom of God without having a part in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Luke 17:
"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[ituttut]

Hey fellow Baptists!
I'm in a discussion on another board with Calvinists, Lutherans, Reform -- all those guys that take all or parts of the TULIP very seriously. And I must say, I have found much to applaud them on despite my free will perspecitive. For instance, I now believe that "faith" and even "repentance" are GIVEN by God -- they do not originate in men.

However, I believe I have found more biblical support for a more amenable paradigm that free will and Calvinist can share. I would invite your comments. I find that Calvinists over there are often very strict in their interpretations and will not see any part for man in salvation despite scriptural invitation to "whosoever will."

Here's how I "parallel" the 2 views:

I believe that step #1 in salvation is biblical "hearing" --- the same thing as what Calcvinists call "drawing." John 12:32. "ALL men" can "hear!

Agree by "ear", "heart", and "Word".

I believe that the the Spirit works on 3 levels in salvation: 1) the Spirit is in the word of God "drawing" the unbeliever. 2) He "fills" the believer of the word thereby "calling" him effecaciously and irresistibly. 3) Upon repentance (in which the believer obeys the "filling" of the Spirit) the Holy Spirit "ndwells"/"egenerates"/causes the "new birth.

Yes, as we believe the Word in our mouth, which we speak from our heart, we confess the Lord Jesus. We are saved, for all our sins are forgiven, never to arise again.

Thus, step #2 is "belief." Hearing and believing are man's part in salvation. Neither is a "work," Rom 4:5 as Calvinists are so wont to avoid. Hearing and believing are enabled by the Holy Spirit (one guy over there says we are not "free will" but "enabled will" believers).

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Don't, and we won't.

Step #3 is "repentance" toward God or Christ (the distinction is significant as I'll show momentarily). Once the sinner believes, he/she is FILLED -- mind, emotions, and will are temporarily controlled -- by the Holy Spirit resulting in a) repentance or b) asking "What must I DO." (Acts 2) followed by repentance.

Are you not entering into works (or the "step as presented")? This is for those that made covenant with God. That was on the basis of you do this and I will do that. Their salvation is of obedience justified by faith, and ours is not.

I like the way you start "repentance is toward God". If we stick with this then it demonstrates where we go for our "repentance of sins". We (repent) turn towards the light, and in so doing it is in Christ Jesus that we find our Repentance, our forgiveness of sins as we are circumcised and baptized without hands.

We confess His name and our repentance is complete in Him. We die with Him on the Cross as that is where He took care of all "sins". He did not leave any of mine lying about. They are gone forever, else we could not be in the Body of Christ Church.

Step #4 is the believer receives "faith" -- God's work! And here's where this paradigm actually helps the Calvinist! See, OT saints were "filled" with the Holy Spirit but they were never "indwelt," John 16:7. Why weren't they? Because they await the "resurrection of the just" postrib to the earth to "see"/"hear" Jesus and receive the indwelling Spirit and the "gifts" of the Spirit.

I like this, and if this is your belief then you are a "dispensationalist" at heart.

Step #5 for the NT believer is the receiving from God (His work) of the "indwelling" of the Spirit unto the "new birth"/"regeneration"/"born again"/"new life in Christ" and spiritual gifts. We call this "sanctification" of the saint. Again, the OT saints come under sanctification in the MK.

This looks to be OSAS. Is this what Calvin believed?

Any comments? I believe that Calvinism was "Provisional Theology" much as Darwin called his Theory of Evolution "Provisional Science" --- both were acceptable until a better paradigm was given.

This is the theology of man. We have a gospel given to us today of justification through faith.

 

[Andy T.]

In the 22 translations I have, James 2:19 does not mention faith at all. Believe and faith are not the same.

In the context of this verse, James talks about dead faith and a faith that saves. Why would he even use the example of the demons, then? What's his point here? Is it just an aside that has no connection with his larger point that dead faith does not save? James 2 most certainly delineates two kinds of faith - a faith that saves and one that does not.

 

[Andy T.]

1) Christ did not die on the cross to save demons.
2) Belief in the fact that there is one God does not save anybody.
3) If I have faith in the ability of a ladder to get me on the roof, I am not going to get on the roof unless I climb the ladder.

We agree here, Blammo. There is a faith that saves and one that does not. They are not the same faith, as Webdog asserts.

 

[webdog]

In the context of this verse, James talks about dead faith and a faith that saves. Why would he even use the example of the demons, then? What's his point here?

That believing and faith aren't necessarily the same thing.

James 2 most certainly delineates two kinds of faith - a faith that saves and one that does not.

It deals with believing...two kinds: One that leads to saving faith in Christ, and one that does not.

 

[Andy T.]

That believing and faith aren't necessarily the same thing.

It deals with believing...two kinds: One that leads to saving faith in Christ, and one that does not.

O.k., then - we agree. We're just using different terminology. I will point out that 2:14, 17, 18, 20, 26 all use the term "faith" in the context of "dead" or a faith that does not save. And oftentimes "belief" and "faith" are used interchangeably, as in v. 22-23. 22 says "faith was working..." and then v. 23 says "Abraham believed God..." And then there's the verse in Acts that says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Certainly belief in that verse is equated with faith, since such belief will save a person.

 

[skypair]

Bro. Bob,

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Is it possible to have a part in the Kingdom of God without having a part in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Luke 17:"21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Here's my KoG - KoH perspective. The kingdom of heaven is Christ's kingdom, the earth -- the KoG is God's kingdom, the spiritual world in us but physically only in heaven. Included in God's kingdom is everything that has been perfected -- so only the "justified" soul ("spiritual Isreal") is God's kingdom here.

In Christ's kingdom, as the Matt KoH parables and the MK tell us, there are believers and unbellievers ("wheat AND tares") in His KoH even when the King is present (as also at His first advent).

Thus, the KoG that we pray "Thy kingdom come" physically NEVER is fulfilled until the New Earth. That is, after all is perfect -- all sin, death, and hell are thrown into the "lake of fire."

You might say the Christ's kingdom is the kingdom that is in the priocess of "sanctification" while God's kingdom is only those parts that are fully justified, first spiritually (OT saints went to heaven after Christ's sacrifice was accepted) and then physically (the kingdom delivered up in glorified bodies a) at the pretrib rapture and b) at the postMK rapture :thumbs! :thumbs: God's physical kingdom on earth is both KoH and KOG glorified.

Does that answer your question?

skypair

 

[J.D.]

There are only TWO WAYS to be saved - one is by works, the other is by grace. Since Adam and every person since has blown the first one, only those saved by the second one can be truly saved.

All this speculation over "which" kingdom we are talking about is moot to the point.

No one can be saved by works in any "dispensation", period. If you don't get that point, you'll never understand grace.

 

[skypair]

Ittut,

Are you not entering into works (or the "step as presented")? This is for those that made covenant with God. That was on the basis of you do this and I will do that. Their salvation is of obedience justified by faith, and ours is not.

I like the way you start "repentance is toward God". If we stick with this then it demonstrates where we go for our "repentance of sins". We (repent) turn towards the light, and in so doing it is in Christ Jesus that we find our Repentance, our forgiveness of sins as we are circumcised and baptized without hands.

We confess His name and our repentance is complete in Him. We die with Him on the Cross as that is where He took care of all "sins". He did not leave any of mine lying about. They are gone forever, else we could not be in the Body of Christ Church.

This is the crux of the matter for Calvinists, isn't it?

The perspective I have tried to bring from scripture is that 1) faith is not works -- Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." "Work" and "faith" are here seen as mutually exclusive, right?

Now as to "repentance" -- this I see as done under the power/"filling" of the Holy Spirit (which I should have also noted is a "CONVICTING belief."). This is the point at which Calvinists will cite Eph 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" -- the "quickening" while we were yet dead. Our action of repentance is "controlled" (Calvinist concept IMO) by the God the Holy Spirit.

You like my "repentance toward God?" Good -- there's more! The OT saints repented toward God as well, which brought them to observance of the law. We church turn toward Christ which brings us to "be conformed to the image of Christ," Rom 8:29. It becomes patently clear by this that the OT saints are NOT "in Christ" yet, is it not?

Our repentance to avoid the EARTHLY consequences of sin is continuous though, right? 2Cor 7:9-11 is the best picture in scripture of our continuing cleansing of sin and sanctification toward God.

skypair

 

[skypair]

AT,

That believing and faith aren't necessarily the same thing.

I agree. Heb 11 says "faith is the evidence of things [believed]." That's how I heard Ed Young say it -- it might help you as well! We believe without seeing but when we have faith, we have seen "proof!"

It deals with believing...two kinds: One that leads to saving faith in Christ, and one that does not.

This too is critical! Calvinists often make faith = belief (which we see by the above cannot be). But since that definition is the same, they also say that belief is given and MUST BE effectual and irresistible since it is given from God.

Not at all. I point them to 1Cor 15:2 -- "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Faith can be in the wrong thing and dead. Belief can be in the right thing but "in vain" if we DO nothing about it -- if we Heb 10:38-39 -- "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

So we see that God can draw us to belief but we can "draw back unto perdition" through free will and not be saved though we believe. This is what I fear that many Calvinists do -- they draw back because they never did anything about their belief, right? This, I believe, is what Chrsit calls "having a name that liveth but art dead." regarding Sardis, Rev 3:1 and I don't hesitate to point them to this application of Rev 2-3.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

AT,

I agree. Heb 11 says "faith is the evidence of things [believed]." That's how I heard Ed Young say it -- it might help you as well! We believe without seeing but when we have faith, we have seen "proof!"

This too is critical! Calvinists often make faith = belief (which we see by the above cannot be). But since that definition is the same, they also say that belief is given and MUST BE effectual and irresistible since it is given from God.

Not at all. I point them to 1Cor 15:2 -- "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Faith can be in the wrong thing and dead. Belief can be in the right thing but "in vain" if we DO nothing about it -- if we Heb 10:38-39 -- "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

So we see that God can draw us to belief but we can "draw back unto perdition" through free will and not be saved though we believe. This is what I fear that many Calvinists do -- they draw back because they never did anything about their belief, right? This, I believe, is what Chrsit calls "having a name that liveth but art dead." regarding Sardis, Rev 3:1 and I don't hesitate to point them to this application of Rev 2-3.

skypair

Skypair, note how we often mix works with grace. From your post: "they never did anything"

"Did" is the past tesnse of "do". What do we "do" to be saved? Believe. And if we have believed, how is it then that we "draw back unto perdition", if, in fact, we have believed? They "draw back" by NOT BELIEVING. "We are NOT OF THEM THAT DRAW BACK" says the passage, but are of them which "BELIEVE UNTO SALVATION".

Also, you said "not be saved though we believe" - are you promoting true Arminianism - that you can lose your salvation? Believers can be lost even though they believe?

 

[Brother Bob]

Mar 1:14¶Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mat 6:33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 21:43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Sky;
I understand your belief on the KoH and the KoG but I think I can use Scriptures and show it seems to use both as the same Kingdom in the four Gospels as shown in the above Scriptures. There are many more to support this being both for there is but one Gospel and it comes from both kingdoms for repentance.

When the end comes will there be an end to the Kingdom of Heaven or has it already come and all is the Kingdom of God now, well there could be some truth to that if that is what you are saying. I know that He overcome and sat down with the Father in His Kingdom so I would think there is but one Kingdom really.

 

[skypair]

D.

Skypair, note how we often mix works with grace. From your post: "they never did anything"

"Did" is the past tense of "do". What do we "do" to be saved? Believe. And if we have believed, how is it then that we "draw back unto perdition", if, in fact, we have believed? They "draw back" by NOT BELIEVING. "We are NOT OF THEM THAT DRAW BACK" says the passage, but are of them which "BELIEVE UNTO SALVATION".

Also, you said "not be saved though we believe" - are you promoting true Arminianism - that you can lose your salvation? Believers can be lost even though they believe?

There is such a thing as "belieiving in vain." Do you agree, D? Paul also said in Hebrews that there were some who had (Heb 6:4) "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, ..." I see these as "enlightened"means "drawn'" or "heard". I take it "tasted" means "believed." I think being "partakers" means, under the power of the Holy Spirit, "repented" and "received" Christ. So I see the phases you asked about and I see that they are distinct -- that is, one could taste without partaking.

And no, I don't promote Arminianism. Even these in Heb 6 cannot be lost much less be renewed unto repentance.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Mar 1:14¶Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mat 6:33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 21:43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Sky;
I understand your belief on the KoH and the KoG but I think I can use Scriptures and show it seems to use both as the same Kingdom in the four Gospels as shown in the above Scriptures. There are many more to support this being both for there is but one Gospel and it comes from both kingdoms for repentance.

When the end comes will there be an end to the Kingdom of Heaven or has it already come and all is the Kingdom of God now, well there could be some truth to that if that is what you are saying. I know that He overcome and sat down with the Father in His Kingdom so I would think there is but one Kingdom really.

Probably, Bro. Bob, we ought to take this to another thread where we can "hash it out" on topic. I agree there has been much amibiguity regarding the 2. It doesn't help that only one apostle makes a distiction and that by speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven only in parables.

I'll be back and get that started because the parables in Matthew are very illuminating.

skypair