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New Calvinist Paradigm?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Aug 21, 2006.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Bro. Bob,

    Well, 2 issues with your post: 1) "The kingdom of Heaven" is NOT now at hand. Did you know that? The "kingdom of heaven" is Christ's kingdom. It was here; it will be here (MK); it's not here just now. 2) I'm guessing that -- since I don't have your reference -- there was a little more to it than that to what He said. You're just trying to be sarcastic, right? Cause I don't get your point. Wouldn't they still have to hear and believe Him?

    skypair
     
    #21 skypair, Aug 21, 2006
  2. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    webdog,

    I am still examining this. Do you have scripture for that? I agree with you 100% --- we are NOT "totally unable" as Calvinists believe.

    skypair
     
    #22 skypair, Aug 21, 2006
  3. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    npetreley,

    Let's DON'T replace words so cavallierly. My thought is that, yes, God gives uf the will by the "filling" of the Holy Spirit IF we first believe. Think back to when you were saved --- your will was suddenly to do God's will, right? To obey God. Do you understand "filling" of the Spirit as the Spirit controlling your mind-emotions-will temporarily?

    I guess I like "whosoever will [believe]." That will perhaps put the "belief" part in the proper perspective for me. How about you? Isn't the gospel considered "common grace" available to all? Yes, it is God's Spirit that is the "motive power" to actually repent for those who believe.

    I find the issue you raise very critical for some Calvinists because they view belief as EQUAL TO faith. Not in this paradigm. If you want, I'll demonstrate why not.

    skypair
     
    #23 skypair, Aug 21, 2006
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    AndyT,

    You bring up a critical issue: belief vs. faith

    The demons "believe and tremble." So do those in hell (re: the rich man vs. Lazarus, Luke 16). BUT it was not given by God for them to have faith, right? But it IS given to we living to have faith if we believe.

    Rom 3:22 -- "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:..."

    Gal 3:22 -- "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."
    Do you see the scriptural distinction between "belief" and "faith?"

    skypair
     
    #24 skypair, Aug 21, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    Is it possible to have a part in the Kingdom of God without having a part in the Kingdom of Heaven?

    Luke 17:
    "21": Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
     
    #25 Brother Bob, Aug 21, 2006
  6. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Agree by "ear", "heart", and "Word".
    Yes, as we believe the Word in our mouth, which we speak from our heart, we confess the Lord Jesus. We are saved, for all our sins are forgiven, never to arise again.
    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Don't, and we won't.
    Are you not entering into works (or the "step as presented")? This is for those that made covenant with God. That was on the basis of you do this and I will do that. Their salvation is of obedience justified by faith, and ours is not.

    I like the way you start "repentance is toward God". If we stick with this then it demonstrates where we go for our "repentance of sins". We (repent) turn towards the light, and in so doing it is in Christ Jesus that we find our Repentance, our forgiveness of sins as we are circumcised and baptized without hands.

    We confess His name and our repentance is complete in Him. We die with Him on the Cross as that is where He took care of all "sins". He did not leave any of mine lying about. They are gone forever, else we could not be in the Body of Christ Church.
    I like this, and if this is your belief then you are a "dispensationalist" at heart.
    This looks to be OSAS. Is this what Calvin believed?
    This is the theology of man. We have a gospel given to us today of justification through faith.
     
    #26 ituttut, Aug 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2006
  7. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    In the context of this verse, James talks about dead faith and a faith that saves. Why would he even use the example of the demons, then? What's his point here? Is it just an aside that has no connection with his larger point that dead faith does not save? James 2 most certainly delineates two kinds of faith - a faith that saves and one that does not.
     
    #27 Andy T., Aug 22, 2006
  8. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    We agree here, Blammo. There is a faith that saves and one that does not. They are not the same faith, as Webdog asserts.
     
    #28 Andy T., Aug 22, 2006
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That believing and faith aren't necessarily the same thing.
    It deals with believing...two kinds: One that leads to saving faith in Christ, and one that does not.
     
    #29 webdog, Aug 22, 2006
  10. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    O.k., then - we agree. We're just using different terminology. I will point out that 2:14, 17, 18, 20, 26 all use the term "faith" in the context of "dead" or a faith that does not save. And oftentimes "belief" and "faith" are used interchangeably, as in v. 22-23. 22 says "faith was working..." and then v. 23 says "Abraham believed God..." And then there's the verse in Acts that says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Certainly belief in that verse is equated with faith, since such belief will save a person.
     
    #30 Andy T., Aug 22, 2006
  11. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Bro. Bob,

    Here's my KoG - KoH perspective. The kingdom of heaven is Christ's kingdom, the earth -- the KoG is God's kingdom, the spiritual world in us but physically only in heaven. Included in God's kingdom is everything that has been perfected -- so only the "justified" soul ("spiritual Isreal") is God's kingdom here.

    In Christ's kingdom, as the Matt KoH parables and the MK tell us, there are believers and unbellievers ("wheat AND tares") in His KoH even when the King is present (as also at His first advent).

    Thus, the KoG that we pray "Thy kingdom come" physically NEVER is fulfilled until the New Earth. That is, after all is perfect -- all sin, death, and hell are thrown into the "lake of fire."

    You might say the Christ's kingdom is the kingdom that is in the priocess of "sanctification" while God's kingdom is only those parts that are fully justified, first spiritually (OT saints went to heaven after Christ's sacrifice was accepted) and then physically (the kingdom delivered up in glorified bodies a) at the pretrib rapture and b) at the postMK rapture :thumbs! :thumbs: God's physical kingdom on earth is both KoH and KOG glorified.

    Does that answer your question?

    skypair
     
    #31 skypair, Aug 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2006
  12. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    There are only TWO WAYS to be saved - one is by works, the other is by grace. Since Adam and every person since has blown the first one, only those saved by the second one can be truly saved.

    All this speculation over "which" kingdom we are talking about is moot to the point.

    No one can be saved by works in any "dispensation", period. If you don't get that point, you'll never understand grace.
     
    #32 J.D., Aug 22, 2006
  13. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Ittut,

    This is the crux of the matter for Calvinists, isn't it?

    The perspective I have tried to bring from scripture is that 1) faith is not works -- Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." "Work" and "faith" are here seen as mutually exclusive, right?

    Now as to "repentance" -- this I see as done under the power/"filling" of the Holy Spirit (which I should have also noted is a "CONVICTING belief."). This is the point at which Calvinists will cite Eph 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" -- the "quickening" while we were yet dead. Our action of repentance is "controlled" (Calvinist concept IMO) by the God the Holy Spirit.

    You like my "repentance toward God?" Good -- there's more! The OT saints repented toward God as well, which brought them to observance of the law. We church turn toward Christ which brings us to "be conformed to the image of Christ," Rom 8:29. It becomes patently clear by this that the OT saints are NOT "in Christ" yet, is it not?

    Our repentance to avoid the EARTHLY consequences of sin is continuous though, right? 2Cor 7:9-11 is the best picture in scripture of our continuing cleansing of sin and sanctification toward God.

    skypair
     
    #33 skypair, Aug 22, 2006
  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    AT,

    I agree. Heb 11 says "faith is the evidence of things [believed]." That's how I heard Ed Young say it -- it might help you as well! We believe without seeing but when we have faith, we have seen "proof!"

    This too is critical! Calvinists often make faith = belief (which we see by the above cannot be). But since that definition is the same, they also say that belief is given and MUST BE effectual and irresistible since it is given from God.

    Not at all. I point them to 1Cor 15:2 -- "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Faith can be in the wrong thing and dead. Belief can be in the right thing but "in vain" if we DO nothing about it -- if we Heb 10:38-39 -- "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

    So we see that God can draw us to belief but we can "draw back unto perdition" through free will and not be saved though we believe. This is what I fear that many Calvinists do -- they draw back because they never did anything about their belief, right? This, I believe, is what Chrsit calls "having a name that liveth but art dead." regarding Sardis, Rev 3:1 and I don't hesitate to point them to this application of Rev 2-3.

    skypair
     
    #34 skypair, Aug 22, 2006
  15. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Skypair, note how we often mix works with grace. From your post: "they never did anything"

    "Did" is the past tesnse of "do". What do we "do" to be saved? Believe. And if we have believed, how is it then that we "draw back unto perdition", if, in fact, we have believed? They "draw back" by NOT BELIEVING. "We are NOT OF THEM THAT DRAW BACK" says the passage, but are of them which "BELIEVE UNTO SALVATION".

    Also, you said "not be saved though we believe" - are you promoting true Arminianism - that you can lose your salvation? Believers can be lost even though they believe?
     
    #35 J.D., Aug 22, 2006
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Mar 1:14¶Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    Mat 6:33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Mat 21:43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Sky;
    I understand your belief on the KoH and the KoG but I think I can use Scriptures and show it seems to use both as the same Kingdom in the four Gospels as shown in the above Scriptures. There are many more to support this being both for there is but one Gospel and it comes from both kingdoms for repentance.

    When the end comes will there be an end to the Kingdom of Heaven or has it already come and all is the Kingdom of God now, well there could be some truth to that if that is what you are saying. I know that He overcome and sat down with the Father in His Kingdom so I would think there is but one Kingdom really.
     
    #36 Brother Bob, Aug 22, 2006
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    D.

    There is such a thing as "belieiving in vain." Do you agree, D? Paul also said in Hebrews that there were some who had (Heb 6:4) "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, ..." I see these as "enlightened"means "drawn'" or "heard". I take it "tasted" means "believed." I think being "partakers" means, under the power of the Holy Spirit, "repented" and "received" Christ. So I see the phases you asked about and I see that they are distinct -- that is, one could taste without partaking.

    And no, I don't promote Arminianism. Even these in Heb 6 cannot be lost much less be renewed unto repentance.

    skypair
     
    #37 skypair, Aug 23, 2006
  18. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Probably, Bro. Bob, we ought to take this to another thread where we can "hash it out" on topic. I agree there has been much amibiguity regarding the 2. It doesn't help that only one apostle makes a distiction and that by speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven only in parables.

    I'll be back and get that started because the parables in Matthew are very illuminating.

    skypair
     
    #38 skypair, Aug 23, 2006
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