New Covenant

[kyredneck]

“Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”” (John 3:4)

Why would Nick react this way to "born from above"? What does that have to do with his mother birthing him all over again? It is because Jesus said you must be born again.

Once again, from post #8:

"Nicodemus's non-enlightenment should not affect the correct rendering of Christ's intent with the word 'anothen' here. Anothen ( from above, from a higher place, of things which come from heaven or God, from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again) can mean 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation in the next verse:

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 1 YLT

Christ wasn't speaking of an earthly physical birth which Nicodemus wrongly perceived, He was speaking of a spiritual birth FROM ABOVE...."

 

[1689Dave]

Once again, from post #8:

"Nicodemus's non-enlightenment should not affect the correct rendering of Christ's intent with the word 'anothen' here. Anothen ( from above, from a higher place, of things which come from heaven or God, from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again) can mean 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation in the next verse:

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 1 YLT

Christ wasn't speaking of an earthly physical birth which Nicodemus wrongly perceived, He was speaking of a spiritual birth FROM ABOVE...."

That's OK. It just doesn't make sense if "born from above" caused Nick to think he must being born all over again from his mother's womb, unless Jesus said you must be born again.

 

[kyredneck]

It just doesn't make sense if "born from above" caused Nick to think he must being born all over again

One more time, 'anothen' can be construed as 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation.

You choose to go with Nicodemus's error. I choose Christ's real intent.

'Born again' totally detracts from a wonderful 'celestial motif' from within the scriptures beginning at Genesis 3:15 to Psalms 87 to Isaiah 54 to Galatians 4:26-29 to Revelation 12. 'Born from above' leads us to the 'city of God', the mother of us all.

 

[HankD]

One more time, 'anothen' can be construed as 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation.

You choose to go with Nicodemus's error. I choose Christ's real intent.

'Born again' totally detracts from a wonderful 'celestial motif' from within the scriptures beginning at Genesis 3:15 to Psalms 87 to Isaiah 54 to Galatians 4:26-29 to Revelation 12. 'Born from above' leads us to the 'city of God', the mother of us all.

Yes two different births;

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

One more time, 'anothen' can be construed as 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation.

You choose to go with Nicodemus's error. I choose Christ's real intent.

'Born again' totally detracts from a wonderful 'celestial motif' from within the scriptures beginning at Genesis 3:15 to Psalms 87 to Isaiah 54 to Galatians 4:26-29 to Revelation 12. 'Born from above' leads us to the 'city of God', the mother of us all.

Since the word ἄνωθεν "above" or "again" has a wide area of meaning, why not translate it in a way that prompted Nick's response? The meaning is unchanged. It just makes more sense to call it as the KJV. MEV, and ESV call it.

 

[TCassidy]

You all understand that in the Greek this is 'born from above', right? As in:

ανωθεν = from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again.

Remember the three rules of bible interpretation. #1 Context. #2 Context. #3 Context.

Context is your friend.

Born from mother's womb.

Born again.

Nicodemus, enter a second time into mother's womb?

If it means "born from above" as is wrongly asserted, there is no such thing as the "second birth."

 

[kyredneck]

Remember the three rules of bible interpretation. #1 Context. #2 Context. #3 Context.

That's a joke coming from you.

Context is your friend.

Yea, context is clearly on my side here. Post 8. So is consistency, post 15.

If it means "born from above" as is wrongly asserted, there is no such thing as the "second birth."

Christ isn't speaking of a 'second birth' here. He's telling of the heavenly birth.

 

[kyredneck]

ανωθεν = from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again.

Refresher.

 

[1689Dave]

That's a joke coming from you.



Yea, context is clearly on my side here. Post 8. So is consistency, post 15.



Christ isn't speaking of a 'second birth' here. He's telling of the heavenly birth.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” (John 3:4)
If born-again fits better, and the KJV, MEV, and ESV scholars chose it as the best option, why all the fuss?

 

[kyredneck]

If born-again fits better, and the KJV, MEV, and ESV scholars chose it as the best option, why all the fuss?

Lol, you ever pondered on this?:

17 For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 3

Hoi polloi, the many, the most, the majority, 'corrupting' (was used in reference to wine merchants watering down the wine) the word of God; the same 'hoi polloi' of Romans 5:15 and other places. You think the synergist/free willer/Arminian translators never had influence with how this was rendered?

From post #15:

"Born ‘again’, or ‘anew', breaks the continuity of how John consistently uses the word anothen in other places, even in that very chapter a mere 24 verses later, AND, it caters to and appeases the synergists in that it allows them wiggle room to claim having a part in it. 'Born from above' strongly denotes the truth that man is totally passive in the heavenly birth and it melds perfectly with all of John’s other ’born from above’ statements:"

 

[1689Dave]

Lol, you ever pondered on this?:

17 For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 3

Hoi polloi, the many, the most, the majority, 'corrupting' (was used in reference to wine merchants watering down the wine) the word of God; the same 'hoi polloi' of Romans 5:15 and other places. You think the synergist/free willer/Arminian translators never had influence with how this was rendered?

From post #15:

"Born ‘again’, or ‘anew', breaks the continuity of how John consistently uses the word anothen in other places, even in that very chapter a mere 24 verses later, AND, it caters to and appeases the synergists in that it allows them wiggle room to claim having a part in it. 'Born from above' strongly denotes the truth that man is totally passive in the heavenly birth and it melds perfectly with all of John’s other ’born from above’ statements:"

How is this corrupting God's word? If the Greek source allows for it as one of several options. And if it makes more sense to use "again" instead of "above"? If you want to import Calvinist doctrine into your choice of words, fine. But there are many other ways to refute synergism without compromising this text.

 

[kyredneck]

How is this corrupting God's word? If the Greek source allows for it as one of several options

I suppose you missed the point of the influence of free willer translators 'watering down' 'born from above' to 'born again'.

And if it makes more sense to use "again" instead of "above"

I've given ample reasons on why it makes sense to hold to the literal rendering of 'born from above'.

I'm being pulled in another direction-duty calls.

 

[1689Dave]

I suppose you missed the point of the influence of free willer translators 'watering down' 'born from above' to 'born again'.



I've given ample reasons on why it makes sense to hold to the literal rendering of 'born from above'.

I'm being pulled in another direction-duty calls.

I'm saying, let's not butcher one text to make it say what we want. Let's have it say what it rightfully says and use texts that deal directly with "free will" to do the rest.

 

[steaver]

Oh my Goodness!!! almost two pages of debate on "born again" vs "born from above". LOL. Really? Don't we all know the word of God states it both ways and they each mean the exact same thing? How about you guys take a stab at the OP, it seems this is a topic most do not want to wade into. I don't know if it is a lack of knowledge concerning what the New Covenant consist of, or if the tenants of the New Covenant causes some discomfort with closely held doctrines.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is a synopsis of my understanding of the New Covenant as it relates to the Old Covenant and before.

Believers of all-time had the loving condition of the heart God promised in the New Covenant. He gave the Old Covenant to the unregenerate who he threatened with death for disobedience and promised material rewards for obedience.

These thought they were good for not letting themselves steal even though they wanted to. But the believers like Job, Abel and Abraham did not want to steal because they were born again.

So the believers always kept the Ten Commandments by the Two Great Commandments (law) written in their hearts. But the unbelievers could not keep that law by keeping the Ten Commandments. They did not have the love for God and other people provided in the new birth.

When God abolished the Ten Commandments (Old Covenant) on the cross, only the believers remained. He "broke off" the unbelievers from Israel. He added believing gentiles in their place.

Today we use the Ten Commandments for instruction and commentary. But the Two Great Commandments calling for love of God and others remains the backbone of NT ethics. Today instead of not stealing, we give. Instead of not murdering our enemies, we bless them and contribute to their wellbeing...etc., etc.

In the OT, the Holy Spirit was with believers. Since Pentecost, he is in believers. And this makes up the Kingdom of God Jesus rules from heavenly Jerusalem on David’s throne.

The Old Covenant was also one of grace, as none ever saved were saved by the Law, but by His Grace!

 

[steaver]

Notice the Apostles were born again before Pentecost.

Where did you read this?

At Pentecost they received the indwelling or baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The indwelling baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Rebirth, "Born again"

Remember, Paul says

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

And Paul wrote this to Christians.

And Hebrews 11 lists many OT saints, including Abraham who were faithful.

Why did Hebrews state these died in faith WITHOUT receiving the promises? What promises did they not receive?

 

[steaver]

The Old Covenant was also one of grace, as none ever saved were saved by the Law, but by His Grace!

Can you show this with some Scripture?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where did you read this?



The indwelling baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Rebirth, "Born again"



And Paul wrote this to Christians.



Why did Hebrews state these died in faith WITHOUT receiving the promises? What promises did they not receive?

The blood of Jesus was not yet applied as an offering to God for the atonement, so how could they be reborn until God accepted his death, as shown by ripping the sheet in the Temple? His take of them being born again, and then receiving the Spirit in power sounds like pentacostal 101 I was taught in school!

 

[steaver]

Were those saved under the Old Covenant having the Holy Spirit?

All are saved the same way, by grace through faith. So what is New about the New Covenant?

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you show this with some Scripture?

Galatians 3:8, Paul linked OT to grace, not to Law to save!
Paul also looked back to David and Abraham as those under OT who still showed to us God always salvation wise dealt by grace and faith!