The OT believers did not have direct access to the throne of God, needed to go thru sacrifices and the priesthood, and the Holy spirit only was said to be in and using certain people like the prophets, priests, and Kings! We have NOW all spiritual blessings in Christ...
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New Covenant
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. All of the OT saints and believers in Christ were born again.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23)
The New Birth is the resurrection. Beginning with the human spirit and ending with the resurrection on the last day.
Before Pentecost, saints were born again. After Pentecost all receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit along with the New Birth.
The promises God made to Abraham were forever. To be fulfilled in the New Heavens and Earth. The land of Canaan was a symbol for this. The born again saw it as a symbol. The spiritually dead believed the promise consisted of the symbol.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The Old Covenant was purely works designed to bring temporal physical rewards for obedience. And wrath for disobedience. But believers existed from the time of Abel. They were good and did not need a law. Just as good people today do not need laws. Laws are for the wicked.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Did Job have access to God's throne? David? David reigned on God's Throne.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's like you say. One translation works better in some contexts than in others. I think "born again" shows that we have nothing to do with our new birth just as we had nothing to do with our physical birth..... Born from above says this too but leaves wiggle room for those thinking being born from above was ultimately their choice.
Right, they couldn't be. Thus, OT saints were not born again until Jesus Christ was glorified. We are on the same page brother! And you are a Calvinist, right?
Amen! Two separate works of the Holy Spirit. One is the rebirth, receiving the living water. The second is receiving the Holy Spirit power. It looks like we are in agreement here. Are you sure you are a Calvinist thinker?
Before Pentecost, we see Jesus' disciples becoming born again after they seen and believed...
"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. (They believed!)
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" (John 20) (Believe/Receive, we see this model all throughout Scripture.)
This is before Pentecost. This is a different act of God from Pentecost. Jesus would not have them receive what they already had if they already had the Holy Ghost. Note he did not say 'receive ye the power of the Holy Ghost'. No, this is not some sort of pre-Pentecost power giving. We know this because Jesus told His disciples....
"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." (Luke 24:49) So obviously when Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Ghost, He was not performing some pre-Pentecost receiving of power upon them, but they were receiving the Holy Ghost seal of the rebirth.
"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal 3:8)
You said, "The Old Covenant was also one of grace, as none ever saved were saved by the Law, but by His Grace!"
Where does this scripture you gave (Gal 3:8) show grace in the Old Covenant?
So they were not able to go into the presence of God when they died in faith? Correct?
Again, you are quoting scripture spoken to New Covenant believers.
This makes no sense brother. Born again, Baptism of the Holy Spirit and New Birth are ALL one in the same.
Born again has nothing to do with choice, it is solely a New Covenant act of God performed on those who believe(d), both OT saints and NT saints.
God saved the sinner under the Old Covenant by grace alone thru faith alone, as the Cross of Christ was the basis of their salvation!
They went to the paradise place jesus described when he talked about Lazarus and the wicked rich man...
Yes, as we are born anew, by the Holy Spirit, who at same time places us into the spiritual Body of Christ.
Consider this:
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
Since the Jerusalem that is above was Isaac's mother (ours's too) it would be appropriate to say that Isaac was 'born from above', right? (no confused Nicodemus involved here to cloud the issue)
Consider this:
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb.
41 And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit;
44 For behold, when the voice of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Lu 1
If John the Baptist was 'born of the spirit' in the womb, then his physical birth would be considered 'born again', right?
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Brother I'm liking your post here! You are the first Calvinist I met here who understands Paradise wasn't heaven. And the OT saints could not go into the presence of God until Jesus Christ took away their sins.
I have considered it, even when I first began to study "born again" twenty years ago, considering context and harmony throughout Scripture. So ask yourself, is being born of the Spirit and being born after the Spirit speaking of the exact same thing?
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)
Doesn't this Scripture make it clear this New Covenant is #1 future, #2 not the same as the Old Covenant and #3 it is the New Heart?
I do not see "filled with the Holy Spirit" the same as "born of the Spirit". Again, through context and harmony it would not work. Born-again believers are instructed to be "filled with the Spirit", does that make sense if we can interchanged the words if it means the exact same? Then it would say to the Born of the Spirit to be born of the Spirit.
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be born of the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) You would be saying like what? I'm already born of the Spirit and you want me to be born of the Spirit? I believe the Word of God is perfect and God purposefully uses specific words for specific teachings.
Allegorically, which is what this is, an allegory, I think so.
Regardless, Isaac was 'born from above' just as we are.
Note this:
44 For behold, when the voice of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Lu 1
John leaped for joy at the presence of Christ. That's not the typical response of 'the natural man'.
Question for you:
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT
Is it inconceivable to you that God could reach into the womb to claim His own?
A LOT of confusion here. I take my Pseudonym not because I am a 17th C Scottish Presbyterian, but because I hold very firmly to Covenant Theology.
Our Bibles should be divided into Old Covenant & New Covenant - Testament has a different range of meanings.
Covenant, according to Scripture is the promise of God to act for his redeemed people so that he can declare them/us to be "my people" and they/we can affirm "the LORD is my God."
God's Everlasting Covenant is unconditional in that it is declaration of his purpose for man, yet conditional on the obedience of man. That paradox is resolved by the LORD Jesus Christ becoming man, for man, living under the Covenant, suffering for the sin of man as a Covenant-breaker, & rising in triumph over death, hell & sin.
Zec. 13:9 .... They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, “They are my people,”
and they will say, “The Lord is our God.”’
Jer. 31:31 ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord,
‘when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,’
declares the Lord.
33 ‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,’ declares the Lord.
‘I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
and I will answer them;
I will say, “They are my people,”
and they will say, “The Lord is our God.”’
Jer. 31:31 ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord,
‘when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,’
declares the Lord.
33 ‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,’ declares the Lord.
‘I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
It was IMPOSSIBLE for people, however "good" to obey the OC as expressed in Exodus 19 - note the "IF" -
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’
Yet God proceeds to go to great detail in giving a Covenant that condemns everyone for disobedience! A futile exercise?!? Foolishness?!? Of course not! God in his wisdom ordained a covenant that he himself would keep by becoming man, for man, under the Law, to keep that Law. As Abraham said to Isaac - "Gen. 22:8 Abraham answered, ‘God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.’ And the two of them went on together. "
As John declared - behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
Next post I will address the question of whether the New Covenant is retrospective for the OC believers.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Then faith did not exist until the NT? And Pentecost was unnecessary?
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