New Covenant

[Covenanter]

Continued ...

Born again has nothing to do with choice, it is solely a New Covenant act of God performed on those who believe(d), both OT saints and NT saints.

God saved the sinner under the Old Covenant by grace alone thru faith alone, as the Cross of Christ was the basis of their salvation!

When you remember that the New Covenant, as expressed to the Hebrews is the Everlasting Covenant -

Heb. 13:20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

All through the saving work of our LORD Jesus Christ. There could never be another basis for salvation. And there is no doubt that the Israelites knew the God of their salvation.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

Since the Jerusalem that is above was Isaac's mother (ours's too) it would be appropriate to say that Isaac was 'born from above', right? (no confused Nicodemus involved here to cloud the issue)

Despite everyone being sinners, many people in Scripture are spoken of as "upright." They knew their God, and walked with him as his children. The Bible speaks of "heart circumcision" as being the real & enduring Covenant relationship,
while flesh circumcision without heart circumcision is worthless.
Flesh circumcision alone, without heart circumcision means a broken covenant.

The Old Covenant believers were saved by God circumcising their hearts.

Deu. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.​

Sovereign grace, giving salvation by faith.

And they knew the indwelling Holy Spirit - and the prophets spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - as Peter asserts -

1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.​

And surely those who heard & obeyed the voice of the prophets did so by the indwelling Holy Spirit. They too LIVED by FAITH. As Habakkuk concludes -

3:17 Though the fig-tree does not bud
and there are no grapes on the vines,
though the olive crop fails
and the fields produce no food,
though there are no sheep in the sheepfold
and no cattle in the stalls,
18 yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
I will be joyful in God my Saviour.

19 The Sovereign Lord is my strength;
he makes my feet like the feet of a deer,
he enables me to tread on the heights.
​

 

[Covenanter]

We need to notice the way the Old Covenant, as expressed in Exo. 19 is fulfilled in Christian believers - aka the Church - according to Peter & John & in Hebrews -

5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Rev. 1:4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father – to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Heb. 8:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance – now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[steaver]

The Old Covenant believers were saved by God circumcising their hearts.
Deu. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

You speak of the Old Covenant believers yet you quote scripture dealing with New Covenant acts of God. The scripture you quoted is Israel's future and has nothing to do with the Old Covenant.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)

#1 New Covenant is future from this time revealed in history
#2 New Covenant is NOT as the Old Covenant
#3 The New Covenant contains the New Heart

 

[1689Dave]

You speak of the Old Covenant believers yet you quote scripture dealing with New Covenant acts of God. The scripture you quoted is Israel's future and has nothing to do with the Old Covenant.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)

#1 New Covenant is future from this time revealed in history
#2 New Covenant is NOT as the Old Covenant
#3 The New Covenant contains the New Heart

Did Abraham have a circumcised heart? His physical circumcision was a sign of it.

 

[steaver]

Is it inconceivable to you that God could reach into the womb to claim His own?

This is your own thinking. No where have you read from scripture 'God reached into the womb and claimed his own'.

 

[steaver]

Did Abraham have a circumcised heart? His physical circumcision was a sign of it.

I do not recall scripture stating Abraham had a circumcised heart. Have you?

Physical circumcision was a sign of God's Covenant with Abraham through Abraham's faith. Physical circumcision does not prove what is in the heart.

 

[steaver]

Then faith did not exist until the NT? And Pentecost was unnecessary?

Does not follow anything I said......

 

[1689Dave]

I do not recall scripture stating Abraham had a circumcised heart. Have you?

Physical circumcision was a sign of God's Covenant with Abraham through Abraham's faith. Physical circumcision does not prove what is in the heart.

If you compare circumcision of the heart with the fruits of the Spirit, Jesus is speaking about the circumcised heart when he speaks of the New Birth.

“I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh.I will put my Spirit within you; I will take the initiative and you will obey my statutes and carefully observe my regulations.” (Ezekiel 36:26–27)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23)

All of the faithful in the OT had circumcised hearts or they would not have had faith, a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

Does not follow anything I said......

You must have the Holy Spirit in order to have faith. Hebrews 11 list many of the OT faithful.

 

[kyredneck]

This is your own thinking. No where have you read from scripture 'God reached into the womb and claimed his own'.

Ok. But you would agree that the spirit of God came to John the Baptist while he was in the womb, right?

 

[steaver]

Ok. But you would agree that the spirit of God came to John the Baptist while he was in the womb, right?

Agreed. As the Spirit of God has done many marvelous works throughout history, including speaking to Balaam through a dumb Ass. But of course the dumb Ass wasn't born from above.

 

[steaver]

If you compare circumcision of the heart with the fruits of the Spirit, Jesus is speaking about the circumcised heart when he speaks of the New Birth.

“I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh.I will put my Spirit within you; I will take the initiative and you will obey my statutes and carefully observe my regulations.” (Ezekiel 36:26–27)

Ok, you haven't addressed these facts:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)

#1 New Covenant is future from this time revealed in history
#2 New Covenant is NOT as the Old Covenant
#3 The New Covenant contains the New Heart

 

[1689Dave]

Ok, you haven't addressed these facts:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)

#1 New Covenant is future from this time revealed in history
#2 New Covenant is NOT as the Old Covenant
#3 The New Covenant contains the New Heart

The way I see it is that Believers always existed. Abel, Job, Abraham, the 7000 who did not bend their knee to Baal. But under the New Covenant, God would remove all the unbelievers, leaving only the believers. These would follow Christ. And God would add to these believing gentiles, fulfilling Abraham's promise.

The degree in which the New Covenant believers have the Holy Spirit it more pronounced than what the OT believers experienced.

But Hebrews 11 list many OT believers and faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and New Birth.

 

[steaver]

The way I see it is that Believers always existed.

Of course they have. The subject is the New Birth through the New Covenant. The scripture is clear, the New Heart comes with the New Covenant.

But Hebrews 11 list many OT believers and faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and New Birth.

Hebrews says, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises"......."And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us,"

What promises did the OT saints NOT receive?

What "better thing" do New Covenant saints have?

 

[1689Dave]

Of course they have. The subject is the New Birth through the New Covenant. The scripture is clear, the New Heart comes with the New Covenant.



Hebrews says, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises"......."And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us,"

What promises did the OT saints NOT receive?

What "better thing" do New Covenant saints have?

The problem is, Abraham preceded the Old Covenant and the New. And he had a circumcised heart proven by his faith, and wearing of the external sign.

 

[1689Dave]

Ok, you haven't addressed these facts:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)

#1 New Covenant is future from this time revealed in history
#2 New Covenant is NOT as the Old Covenant
#3 The New Covenant contains the New Heart

I already showed that # 3 is a misunderstanding on your part. Abraham had a circumcised heart, as did all believers because Faith is the effect of circumcision of the heart.

 

[kyredneck]

Agreed. As the Spirit of God has done many marvelous works throughout history, including speaking to Balaam through a dumb Ass. But of course the dumb Ass wasn't born from above.

He not only spoke to Balaam, He spoke through Balaam, even when Balaam was wanting to curse Israel He made Balaam to bless Israel.

 

[steaver]

The problem is, Abraham preceded the Old Covenant and the New. And he had a circumcised heart proven by his faith, and wearing of the external sign.

It's not a problem. you keep saying this as your opinion bc you have not shown it from any scripture. Paul had faith in God, Paul had physical circumcision, yet Paul was lost, having no circumcised heart, until Jesus Christ stopped him on the road to Damascus. So it appears you have the misunderstanding

 

[steaver]

I already showed that # 3 is a misunderstanding on your part. Abraham had a circumcised heart, as did all believers because Faith is the effect of circumcision of the heart.

Then you are saying this scripture is wrong, it is not future from this revelation, it is not a "new covenant" and the putting of the "law in their inward parts" will not be done "after those days".

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31)

 

[steaver]

And don't forget your response to.....

Hebrews says, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises"......."And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us,"

What promises did the OT saints NOT receive?

What "better thing" do New Covenant saints have?