New Jerusalem?

[convicted1]

Here is a question for all who which to respond: New Jerusalem, is it here and now, or is it yet to come?

Here is what John wrote about it:

Rev. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Knowing that Revelations isn't written in chronological order, it's not easy to assume that this is yet to come, is it? But what do y'all think. If anyone has asked this question in the last few months, I am sorry. This subject has been on my mind the last couple days or so.

Willis

 

[David Lamb]

Here is a question for all who which to respond: New Jerusalem, is it here and now, or is it yet to come?

Here is what John wrote about it:

Rev. 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Knowing that Revelations isn't written in chronological order, it's not easy to assume that this is yet to come, is it? But what do y'all think. If anyone has asked this question in the last few months, I am sorry. This subject has been on my mind the last couple days or so.

Willis

If, as you say, Revelation is not written in chronological order, why should it be any more difficult to assume that the new Jerusalem is in the future than to assume it is in the past? I don't really understand what you mean.

Perhaps putting Revelation 21.2 into the context of Revelation 21.1-4 may help:

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

​

Surely you are not claiming that Revelation is so "unchronological" that the happenings of verse 2 do not come between those of verse 1 and verses 3-4, are you? If those verses are in chronological order, then (unless you believe that the first earth has already passed away), New Jerusalem must yet be future.

But I may have completely misunderstood what you meant to say. If so, I apologise.

 

[Grasshopper]

First, what is the NJ:

Rev 21:9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,

The NJ is the bride, the Lamb's wife. It is the Church.

The physical Jerusalem was associated with the Old Covenant, we are now under the New Covenant and a new Jerusalem:

Gal 4:22 For it is written: Abraham had two sons, the one out of the slave-woman, and one out of the free woman.
Gal 4:23 But, indeed, he out of the slave-woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise;
Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

So yes, the NJ is a present reality.

 

[convicted1]

If, as you say, Revelation is not written in chronological order, why should it be any more difficult to assume that the new Jerusalem is in the future than to assume it is in the past? I don't really understand what you mean.

Perhaps putting Revelation 21.2 into the context of Revelation 21.1-4 may help:

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

​

Surely you are not claiming that Revelation is so "unchronological" that the happenings of verse 2 do not come between those of verse 1 and verses 3-4, are you? If those verses are in chronological order, then (unless you believe that the first earth has already passed away), New Jerusalem must yet be future.

But I may have completely misunderstood what you meant to say. If so, I apologise.

Bro David,

I am sorry for all the confusion I have caused you, but sometimes it's hard for me to put things into words correctly, especially through a keyboard. I think Grasshopper put it a little better than I did, to be quite honest. What I am trying to bring out is this: after Jesus died and was received into glory, on the Right Hand of Glory, the Holy Ghost came to dwell inside those who believe in the complete work of the Cross at Calvary, the believers, if you will. So when the Holy Ghost came down, it made us, the believers, the CHURCH. Only the CHURCH will go up to be with Him in that great and notable day, that God has foreordained to come, and only He knows when that day, hour, minute and second, that will be. We, as the CHURCH, make up New Jerusalem in Rev chapter 21. IOW, we make up New Jerusalem now, and in the future, as when John saw Her coming down adorned as a bride for her husband. We are the Bride of Christ now. Like when Jesus told them when some would say, "Lo here, or lo there, go not, for the Kingdom is within you". We have the Kingdom in us now, and will dwell in it when Jesus comes to take us home. So yes, I do believe we are in New Jerusalem as I type this, spiritually living in it, that is. I hope I haven't muddied the waters any worse than I already have. If you have any more questions, I will try to answer them the best way I know.

Willis

 

[Marcia]

I think I disagree that the church is the new Jerusalem. There is no biblical support for this that I can think of.

The church is the bride of Christ; the new Jerusalem is the kingdom of God come in glory that rules when Satan and death have been thrown into the lake of fire. We are hardly having the new Jerusalem now. Where is the evidence for it? We are in a world under the sway of the enemy and the truth is constantly under attack.

Btw, I'm back after not posting on the Forum since Feb. 2007! I'll let you know if I'm glad to be back later. :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

I think I disagree that the church is the new Jerusalem. There is no biblical support for this that I can think of.

The church is the bride of Christ; the new Jerusalem is the kingdom of God come in glory that rules when Satan and death have been thrown into the lake of fire. We are hardly having the new Jerusalem now. Where is the evidence for it? We are in a world under the sway of the enemy and the truth is constantly under attack.

Btw, I'm back after not posting on the Forum since Feb. 2007! I'll let you know if I'm glad to be back later. :laugh:

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I can’t see how the church could be anything else, but "New Jerusalem"!

 

[Marcia]

I see your point Brother Bob, but just because Jerusalem is described as a bride, it does not mean it is THE bride, the church. What is the church doing coming down from heaven to Jesus?

It seems strange that the church is a city. Isn't the new Jerusalem the abode of God, what we think of as heaven when it descends to the new earth?

 

[Grasshopper]

I think I disagree that the church is the new Jerusalem. There is no biblical support for this that I can think of

Rev 21:9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God



So the bride and the Lamb's wife is not the church?

 

[Brother Bob]

I see your point Brother Bob, but just because Jerusalem is described as a bride, it does not mean it is THE bride, the church. What is the church doing coming down from heaven to Jesus?

It seems strange that the church is a city. Isn't the new Jerusalem the abode of God, what we think of as heaven when it descends to the new earth?

The souls of the dead here on earth, coming for their bodies.

BBob,

 

[convicted1]

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I can’t see how the church could be anything else, but "New Jerusalem"!

Bro Bob,

Thank you for your posts on this subject! You can bring out in a few words, what is hard for me to do in many, so thanks again. This is why I was asking was New Jerusalem here now. New Jerusalem is a Spiritual city, as well are born again Spiritually at our new birth. This is why I believe we are in New Jerusalem now, and will dwell in Heaven when Jesus comes to take us home!!

Willis

 

[Marcia]

Rev 21:9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God



So the bride and the Lamb's wife is not the church?

Well, yes, it would seem that the Lamb's wife is certainly the church. Thanks for pointing that out.

So is the new Jerusalem the church (body of believers) that is with God - and the church will descend on the new earth? This would mean that the new Jerusalem is the basically what the church is called in the future.

 

[Grasshopper]

Well, yes, it would seem that the Lamb's wife is certainly the church. Thanks for pointing that out.

So is the new Jerusalem the church (body of believers) that is with God - and the church will descend on the new earth? This would mean that the new Jerusalem is the basically what the church is called in the future.

If the NJ is not a physical city, then why assume the New Heavens and Earth are physical?

http://www.eschatology.com/owen2peter.html

 

[Marcia]

If the NJ is not a physical city, then why assume the New Heavens and Earth are physical?

http://www.eschatology.com/owen2peter.html

It may not be physical like the cities we have on earth, but it still has physicality. This sounds physical to me:

He then carried me away in the Spirit (T) [g] to a great and high mountain (U) and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 arrayed with God's glory. (V) Her radiance was like a very precious stone, like a jasper stone, bright as crystal. 12 [The city] had a massive high wall, with 12 gates. Twelve angels were at the gates; [on the gates], names were inscribed, the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. (W) 14 The city wall had 12 foundations, and on them were the 12 names of the Lamb's 12 apostles.

15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod (X) to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. (Y) 16 The city is laid out in a square; its length and width are the same. He measured the city with the rod at 12,000 stadia. [h] Its length, width, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall, 144 cubits according to human measurement, which the angel used. 18 The building material of its wall was jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass.
19 The foundations of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone: (Z)
the first foundation jasper,
the second sapphire,
the third chalcedony,
the fourth emerald,
20 the fifth sardonyx,
the sixth carnelian,
the seventh chrysolite,
the eighth beryl,
the ninth topaz,
the tenth chrysoprase,
the eleventh jacinth,
the twelfth amethyst. 21 The 12 gates are 12 pearls; each individual gate was made of a single pearl. The broad street [i] of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

We are going to be in bodies, albeit glorified ones, but they will still be physical, so it seems our surroundings will have a physicality to them. We are not ethereal spirit beings.

 

[Brother Bob]

If the NJ is not a physical city, then why assume the New Heavens and Earth are physical?

http://www.eschatology.com/owen2peter.html

Take little bites and chew really well, Grasshopper......:laugh:

BBob,

 

[LeBuick]

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I can’t see how the church could be anything else, but "New Jerusalem"!

Are you saying the Church is New Jerusalem now or that we will become New Jerusalem in Rev 21?

If the Church is New Jerusalem (and I believe it is) what becomes of Israel who didn't accept Christ at his first coming? Do they still have a promise? How does the 144,000 fit into this?

 

[Brother Bob]

Are you saying the Church is New Jerusalem now or that we will become New Jerusalem in Rev 21?

If the Church is New Jerusalem (and I believe it is) what becomes of Israel who didn't accept Christ at his first coming? Do they still have a promise? How does the 144,000 fit into this?

If Israel did not accept Christ, then who are we grafted in to?

Though Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.

All Israel, is not Israel.

Jesus told Israel, if you die in your sins, where I am, you cannot come.

Part of NJ is here on earth (The church), and part of it is in Heaven (souls of those who died in faith)

As many as did receive Christ, he gave them power to become the sons of God. The covenant was to Israel. If none received and believed Christ, then how could we be under the new covenant. Gentiles were grafted in to it, by being grafted in to Israel.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

I think I disagree that the church is the new Jerusalem. There is no biblical support for this that I can think of.

The church is the bride of Christ; the new Jerusalem is the kingdom of God come in glory that rules when Satan and death have been thrown into the lake of fire. We are hardly having the new Jerusalem now. Where is the evidence for it? We are in a world under the sway of the enemy and the truth is constantly under attack.

Btw, I'm back after not posting on the Forum since Feb. 2007! I'll let you know if I'm glad to be back later. :laugh:

Marcia, glad to see you back ---- although I don't know that I ever missed you! :laugh: Are you pretrib? :laugh:

You are absolutely right in what you say. We are Christ's "espoused" and we are sending the forward the "materials" for the building of NJ (re: 1Cor 3:10-12 and Rev 21:18-20 "gold, silver, and precious stones," right?). Those materials are the wisdom, thoughts, and glory of God that we trust and obey as we live our lives. Right now Jesus is taking those "materials" and "preparing us a place in His Father's house," John 14:1-3. NJ is our "faith made sight" in that it is an actual, physical place that will be ours according to our faith.

And you are right -- there is NO completed NJ right now. Very soon it will be ready ("Come, Lord Jesus", Rev 22:20). Everything I see says it could be this year!! Wanna imagine what you'll see? Just think about how you've grown in Christ and how much your life reflects His love for God and for others.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Are you saying the Church is New Jerusalem now or that we will become New Jerusalem in Rev 21?

If the Church is New Jerusalem (and I believe it is) what becomes of Israel who didn't accept Christ at his first coming? Do they still have a promise? How does the 144,000 fit into this?

Whoa, LeBuick ... you're asking the wrong guy! :laugh: BBob spiritualizes all these things until they mean what he wants them to mean -- Ex: Israel and the church are one.

NJ is NOT completed yet. It is a physical place described in Rev 21-22. It is the abode of the CHURCH, for sure! It is the heavenly equivalent of the church just as the tabernacle in Revelations is the heavenly equivalent of what is happening to tribulation Israel on earth. And when that trib-MK "scenario" is played out, Israel inherits the New Earth --- NOT New Jerusalem. They have "visitation privileges" through the "pearly gates" to see God face-to-face but it is the church's names that are inscribed upon its pillars and the name of that city that is written on the CHURCH faithful, Rev 3:12!!!

See, problematic for BBob is that he has "blown his wad" in this life. All that he sees takes place "here and now" and is "spiritualized" according to his theology. What follows in a "great judgment" and spiritual heaven and ?????? We play harps on clouds forever if we are saved.

What you need is a good "real estate" salesman who can really show you around physical NJ! :thumbs:

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Whoa, LeBuick ... you're asking the wrong guy! :laugh: BBob spiritualizes all these things until they mean what he wants them to mean -- Ex: Israel and the church are one.

NJ is NOT completed yet. It is a physical place described in Rev 21-22. It is the abode of the CHURCH, for sure! It is the heavenly equivalent of the church just as the tabernacle in Revelations is the heavenly equivalent of what is happening to tribulation Israel on earth. And when that trib-MK "scenario" is played out, Israel inherits the New Earth --- NOT New Jerusalem. They have "visitation privileges" through the "pearly gates" to see God face-to-face but it is the church's names that are inscribed upon its pillars and the name of that city that is written on the CHURCH faithful, Rev 3:12!!!

See, problematic for BBob is that he has "blown his wad" in this life. All that he sees takes place "here and now" and is "spiritualized" according to his theology. What follows in a "great judgment" and spiritual heaven and ?????? We play harps on clouds forever if we are saved.

What you need is a good "real estate" salesman who can really show you around physical NJ! :thumbs:

skypair

Like Skypair for instance. NOT!

Wonder why Jesus said I GO AWAY to prepare a place for you and will come again and receive you unto my self, so that you might also be WHERE I am.

Anyway, skypair can't answer why God said I will make a new covenant with Israel and the House of Judah in that day, and I will write my laws in their heart and their mind.

Now, God either fulfilled that and we were grafted in, or the coming of Jesus was all a fluff.

Paul said to be not married to another, NOW!!!!

BBob,

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, glad to see you back ---- although I don't know that I ever missed you!
skypair

Well, thank you, I think.

:laugh: Are you pretrib? :laugh:

How'd you guess? :laugh: