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New KJV
- Thread starter Askjo
- Start date
Terry_Herrington said:
If you cannot respond any better than this then leave me alone and use whatever version you want to use.
Thank you, Terry, but since the contrary position, held by you, is based only on your fideistic claims and not on any form of evidence, I was doing that already without your kind permission.
If you cannot respond any better than this then leave me alone and use whatever version you want to use.
Thank you, Terry, but since the contrary position, held by you, is based only on your fideistic claims and not on any form of evidence, I was doing that already without your kind permission.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Just a technicality - Irish is a language - one of several Gaelic languages. There is a Bible in Welsh and I think there is a Bible in Scotch Gaelic.
Is the NKJV the biggest problem reflecting to Jesus Christ's evidence? Let us look closely at between the KJV and the NKJV comparing to modern versions.
The KJV
John 5:31
The NKJV
John 5:31
The NIV
John 5:31
The NASB
John 5:31
Look at the NKJV agrees with modern versions against the KJV.
However the KJV is clearest than any modern versions and the NKJV. The KJV used "witness" in John 5:31 and "record" in John 8:14 to show that Christ does not contradict Himself.
The NKJV and modern versions shows that Christ contradicts Himself.
The NKJV said that the Jesus' witness is not true and then three chapters later claims that His witness is true. Ask yourself question: Can both be correct?
The KJV
John 5:31
John 8:14
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The NKJV
John 5:31
John 8:14
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The NIV
John 5:31
John 8:14
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The NASB
John 5:31
John 8:14
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Look at the NKJV agrees with modern versions against the KJV.
However the KJV is clearest than any modern versions and the NKJV. The KJV used "witness" in John 5:31 and "record" in John 8:14 to show that Christ does not contradict Himself.
The NKJV and modern versions shows that Christ contradicts Himself.
The NKJV said that the Jesus' witness is not true and then three chapters later claims that His witness is true. Ask yourself question: Can both be correct?
John 8:14
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The NKJV
John 5:31
John 8:14
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</font>[/QUOTE]In John 8:14 the KJV is a poor translation compared to the Greek. The Greek word transalted record in the KJV should be translated witness.Witness agrees with the TR, NA27 and UBS 4 rev.
You are wrong according to Strong's Concordrance. The Greek meaning could be record, report, testimony and witness. The KJV is clearest when you read it.
The NKJV
witness = witness = true and not true. Can both be correct?
The NKJV shows that Christ contradicts Himself!
The KJV shows that Christ does not contradict Himself:
witness = not true.
record = true.
You complain that Jesus contradicts himself in the NKJV and other MV's, yet, He does the same thing in the KJV. If you read it carefully, you will that in verse 5, in the KJV, "My witness is not true." And in the next one, Jesus says "yet my record is true:" You cannot put down the NKJV without putting down the KJV - for it does the same exact thing.
Now, comes your real issue. Different Bibles use alternative English words for the same Greek word. So what? The KJV uses different English words to translate the same Greek word. Yet, you do not complain about the KJV not being consistant. If that is all you can come up with , better try harder (just like Avis car rental commercial) next time.
You are wrong according to Strong's Concordrance. The Greek meaning could be record, report, testimony and witness. The KJV is clearest when you read it.
The NKJV
witness = witness = true and not true. Can both be correct?
The NKJV shows that Christ contradicts Himself!
The KJV shows that Christ does not contradict Himself:
witness = not true.
record = true. </font>[/QUOTE]Here is strong's exact definition:
Strong's word # 3141
1. a testifying
a. the office committed to the prophets of testifying of future events.
2. What one testifies, testimony, ie before a judge.
The KJV translates it:
Record 7 times
report 1 time
testimony 14 times
witness 15 times
Your complaint does not hold water. Better get rid of that leaky bottle before you run out - you might get thirsty later.
Askjo, you are correct. Amen!! The mv's that have done this have shown to have Jesus Christ lying quite plain and clear.
To the rest of you:
Please take note of the english meanings of these english words, for they are quite different and in and of themselves explain and show forth not only the difference between the two, but perfectly explain EXACTLY what Jesus was saying:
Webster's New World dictionary
witness: 1. evidence, testimony 2. one who saw, or can give a firsthand account of, something 3.one who testifies in court 4. one who observes, and attests to, a signing, etc. -vt. 1. to testify to 2. to serve as evidence of 3. to act as witness of 4. to be present at - bear witness to testify.
record: 1. to write down for future use 2. to register, as on a graph 3. to register (sound or visual images) on a disc, tape, etc. for later reproduction - n. 1. the condition of being recorded 2. anything written down and preserved; account of events 3. a) the known facts about anyone or anything b) the recorded offenses or crimes of a person 4. a grooved disc for playing on a phonograph 5. the best official performance acheived.
You see, Jesus Christ did not bear witness of himself, nor could he, as this was what the disciples and apostles did. Jesus Christ however, could bear record of himself, as he most definately was performing, or being recorded by his witnesses. Don't forget that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, who the scriptures fortold, and while He was here, was being recorded by the witnesses as he also told them to and as he bear record to them (the witnesses) according to the record (scriptures).
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
To the rest of you:
Please take note of the english meanings of these english words, for they are quite different and in and of themselves explain and show forth not only the difference between the two, but perfectly explain EXACTLY what Jesus was saying:
Webster's New World dictionary
witness: 1. evidence, testimony 2. one who saw, or can give a firsthand account of, something 3.one who testifies in court 4. one who observes, and attests to, a signing, etc. -vt. 1. to testify to 2. to serve as evidence of 3. to act as witness of 4. to be present at - bear witness to testify.
record: 1. to write down for future use 2. to register, as on a graph 3. to register (sound or visual images) on a disc, tape, etc. for later reproduction - n. 1. the condition of being recorded 2. anything written down and preserved; account of events 3. a) the known facts about anyone or anything b) the recorded offenses or crimes of a person 4. a grooved disc for playing on a phonograph 5. the best official performance acheived.
You see, Jesus Christ did not bear witness of himself, nor could he, as this was what the disciples and apostles did. Jesus Christ however, could bear record of himself, as he most definately was performing, or being recorded by his witnesses. Don't forget that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, who the scriptures fortold, and while He was here, was being recorded by the witnesses as he also told them to and as he bear record to them (the witnesses) according to the record (scriptures).
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Nonsense! The word "witness" and "record" is the same in the TR Greek of both passages.
You are therefore saying the same thing for every Greek copy of the Scriptures of John that Jesus was lying. So Jesus lies to Greeks but not Englishmen?
Or is this another "advanced revelation"?
HankD
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So, are you saying that the English dictionary has more authority than the Greek dictionary (which I posted) in defining Greek words? I will take what the Greek text and Greek dictionary says over your interpretation of it.
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Just some insight for you TC - we speak, know and understand ENGLISH, even if one were to translate the Greek into ENGLISH. Quite clearly, these two ENGLISH WORDS that can be rendered for the SAME GREEK WORD, mean TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Context my dear....context and truth. Modern scholars should know better the difference. They chose to translate that Greek word to the word that is contrary to context and truth.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
So, are you saying that the English dictionary has more authority than the Greek dictionary (which I posted) in defining Greek words? I will take what the Greek text and Greek dictionary says over your interpretation of it.
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Just some insight for you TC - we speak, know and understand ENGLISH, even if one were to translate the Greek into ENGLISH. Quite clearly, these two ENGLISH WORDS that can be rendered for the SAME GREEK WORD, mean TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. Context my dear....context and truth. Modern scholars should know better the difference. They chose to translate that Greek word to the word that is contrary to context and truth.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
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Nonsense! The word "witness" and "record" is the same in the TR Greek of both passages.
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What is nonsense, is the fact that it has been shown to you all the definitions of these two words, and how they are DIFFERENT enouph in meaning that makes a very important DISTINCTION. These words do not MEAN the same thing, nor is the SAME MEANING in the context and truth.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Nonsense! The word "witness" and "record" is the same in the TR Greek of both passages.
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What is nonsense, is the fact that it has been shown to you all the definitions of these two words, and how they are DIFFERENT enouph in meaning that makes a very important DISTINCTION. These words do not MEAN the same thing, nor is the SAME MEANING in the context and truth.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Askjo:The NKJV said that the Jesus' witness is not true and then three chapters later claims that His witness is true. Ask yourself question: Can both be correct?
The Greek word that the KJV renders as both 'witness' and 'record' is 'martureo', which I assume is an infinitive, and it means "to bear witness, to testify, to give an accurate report", etc.(Dr. Bob, correct me if I've left out any other important definition) Actually, bear witness and bear record meant virtually the same thing in archaic English; I think the main difference being that the 'record' was always written.
Yet another KJVO argument against other versions, especially the NKJV. bites the dust.
The Greek word that the KJV renders as both 'witness' and 'record' is 'martureo', which I assume is an infinitive, and it means "to bear witness, to testify, to give an accurate report", etc.(Dr. Bob, correct me if I've left out any other important definition) Actually, bear witness and bear record meant virtually the same thing in archaic English; I think the main difference being that the 'record' was always written.
Yet another KJVO argument against other versions, especially the NKJV. bites the dust.
............and the "nonsense" is that even with showing the difference between these two words, you all still fight against it. That is just plain nonsense, in the extreme! Go ahead Hank, continue to compromise with error, and outright lies being promoted as truth.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
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The Greek word that the KJV renders as both 'witness' and 'record' is 'martureo', which I assume is an infinitive, and it means "to bear witness, to testify, to give an accurate report", etc.(Dr. Bob, correct me if I've left out any other important definition) Actually, bear witness and bear record meant virtually the same thing in archaic English; I think the main difference being that the 'record' was always written.
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These words have not changed in meaning, and are most definately NOT ARCHAIC. Go to any dictionary, and look up the meanings of these two words, and you will be able to see the DISTINCTION between the two. Also, do not forget the context and truth.
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Yet another KJVO argument against other versions, especially the NKJV. bites the dust.
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It is not a King James Only argument. It is defending the truth of God's words of truth against that which has ALTERED it and made Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth and the life, to lie in the very scriptures themselves, which are the truth, and bear record that he is a liar, in the versions that have so rendered it as such.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
The Greek word that the KJV renders as both 'witness' and 'record' is 'martureo', which I assume is an infinitive, and it means "to bear witness, to testify, to give an accurate report", etc.(Dr. Bob, correct me if I've left out any other important definition) Actually, bear witness and bear record meant virtually the same thing in archaic English; I think the main difference being that the 'record' was always written.
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These words have not changed in meaning, and are most definately NOT ARCHAIC. Go to any dictionary, and look up the meanings of these two words, and you will be able to see the DISTINCTION between the two. Also, do not forget the context and truth.
--------------------------------------------------
Yet another KJVO argument against other versions, especially the NKJV. bites the dust.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not a King James Only argument. It is defending the truth of God's words of truth against that which has ALTERED it and made Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth and the life, to lie in the very scriptures themselves, which are the truth, and bear record that he is a liar, in the versions that have so rendered it as such.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Michelle:What is nonsense, is the fact that it has been shown to you all the definitions of these two words, and how they are DIFFERENT enouph in meaning that makes a very important DISTINCTION. These words do not MEAN the same thing, nor is the SAME MEANING in the context and truth.
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
Main Entry: 1wit·ness
Pronunciation: 'wit-n&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English witnesse, from Old English witnes knowledge, testimony, witness, from 2wit
1 : attestation of a fact or event : TESTIMONY
Main Entry: 2rec·ord
Pronunciation: 're-k&rd also -"kord
Function: noun
3 a (1) : a body of known or recorded facts about something or someone especially with reference to a particular sphere of activity that often forms a discernible pattern
Many versions have added the word "alone" to John 5:31, as that's what the context of the rest of Jesus' words in John 5 indicates, as He reminds His audience of the FOURFOLD testimony about Himself. And in John 8, Jesus goes on to say that His witness of Himself is true because HIS FATHER also testifies of Him. In summary, Jesus said in so many words that He was the ONLY ONE testifying about Himself that it wouldn't be true, but since others, ESPECIALLY HIS FATHER, also testified of Him, then His own testimony was true.
The main differences between bear witness and bear record is that the record was ALWAYS WRITTEN in the days before modern recording devices.
The BOTTOM LINE is that BOTH phrases in the KJV are translated from the SAME GREEK WORD.
The NKJV remains correct also.
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
Main Entry: 1wit·ness
Pronunciation: 'wit-n&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English witnesse, from Old English witnes knowledge, testimony, witness, from 2wit
1 : attestation of a fact or event : TESTIMONY
Main Entry: 2rec·ord
Pronunciation: 're-k&rd also -"kord
Function: noun
3 a (1) : a body of known or recorded facts about something or someone especially with reference to a particular sphere of activity that often forms a discernible pattern
Many versions have added the word "alone" to John 5:31, as that's what the context of the rest of Jesus' words in John 5 indicates, as He reminds His audience of the FOURFOLD testimony about Himself. And in John 8, Jesus goes on to say that His witness of Himself is true because HIS FATHER also testifies of Him. In summary, Jesus said in so many words that He was the ONLY ONE testifying about Himself that it wouldn't be true, but since others, ESPECIALLY HIS FATHER, also testified of Him, then His own testimony was true.
The main differences between bear witness and bear record is that the record was ALWAYS WRITTEN in the days before modern recording devices.
The BOTTOM LINE is that BOTH phrases in the KJV are translated from the SAME GREEK WORD.
The NKJV remains correct also.
Not that I think this will do any good, but once again I would encourage the people making a issue of this supposed conflict between "record" and "witness" to look at the Greek from which the translations came. It has been said that in both the above verses the same Greek word "martureo" is used. The word is translated as witness sometimes in the KJV and as record sometimes in the KJV. There is no real distinction either way. In fact the case could be made that the NKJV translators showed more integrity in their translation as they were consistent while the KJV translators used different English words for the same Greek word.
The reality of this is that it is another straw man. This means nothing. Whether record or witness is used does not change the meaning. But unless you believe the KJV translators received advanced inspiration above the Greek Text they used to translate, this is another empty argument.
Bro Tony
The reality of this is that it is another straw man. This means nothing. Whether record or witness is used does not change the meaning. But unless you believe the KJV translators received advanced inspiration above the Greek Text they used to translate, this is another empty argument.
Bro Tony
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robycop quoted:
Main Entry: 1wit·ness
Pronunciation: 'wit-n&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English witnesse, from Old English witnes knowledge, testimony, witness, from 2wit
1 : attestation of a fact or event : TESTIMONY
Main Entry: 2rec·ord
Pronunciation: 're-k&rd also -"kord
Function: noun
3 a (1) : a body of known or recorded facts about something or someone especially with reference to a particular sphere of activity that often forms a discernible pattern
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The NKJV remains correct also.
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As it has been shown, this above statement is wrong concerning this verse in question of the NKJV. Even your own given definitions above show this. Please, look at the meanings of these English words with context and truth in mind! It seems many of you are NOT DOING THIS.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
robycop quoted:
Main Entry: 1wit·ness
Pronunciation: 'wit-n&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English witnesse, from Old English witnes knowledge, testimony, witness, from 2wit
1 : attestation of a fact or event : TESTIMONY
Main Entry: 2rec·ord
Pronunciation: 're-k&rd also -"kord
Function: noun
3 a (1) : a body of known or recorded facts about something or someone especially with reference to a particular sphere of activity that often forms a discernible pattern
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The NKJV remains correct also.
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As it has been shown, this above statement is wrong concerning this verse in question of the NKJV. Even your own given definitions above show this. Please, look at the meanings of these English words with context and truth in mind! It seems many of you are NOT DOING THIS.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle