New KJV

[Ziggy]

Long off this subject, but worth re-establishing:

AA: “WRONG!!! What about Pietsch? He had a Receptus based Bible in Japan.”

Please show any real *proof* of this statement. The most that I can find from all internet source material is that William and Timothy Pietsch were fundamental missionaries to Japan, engaged also with Fred Schwarz’ anti-communism crusade, but *nothing* regarding any Bible translation they supposedly made into Japanese based on a Receptus type text.

The closest anything I can find that relates to Japanese Bible translations is the following, and even it does not say anything about the Receptus as opposed to any other base:

“Rev. Pietsch had a unique ministry in Japan in that he had a Gospel broadcast over several stations which offered every listener John’s Gospel upon request. He had a wide audience from the amount of letters of inquiry that came in. He said the Japanese liked to hear him in his American-accented Japanese. Rev. Pietsch was a strict separatist and fought the idolatry in Shintoism and every other kind of image worship. When the Japanese argued that bowing to an image was all right since bowing is an Oriental custom, he replied, "If the image can bow back, then you can bow!"

 

[Ziggy]

Askjo: Look at the NKJV agrees with modern versions against the KJV. However the KJV is clearest than any modern versions and the NKJV. The KJV used "witness" in John 5:31 and "record" in John 8:14 to show that Christ does not contradict Himself. The NKJV and modern versions shows that Christ contradicts Himself. The NKJV said that the Jesus' witness is not true and then three chapters later claims that His witness is true. Ask yourself question: Can both be correct?“

Sounds good, Askjo, UNTIL anyone looks at the Greek of the TR (*any* edition) that underlies the KJV:

Jn 5:31 KJV = I bear witness / TR = MARTURW (for Robycopy: Present Active Subjunctive, 1st person singular in context following “if”); my witness = MARTURIA MOU

Jn 8:14 KJV = I bear record/ TR = MARTURW; my record = MARTURIA MOU

Unfortunately for your hypothesis, Jesus said the *exact same words* each time....and it is the “words” that are preserved, right, Askjo? You *do* continue to appeal to the TR, Askjo -- is the TR *wrong* here?

 

[Pastor Larry]

OT Hebrew and NT Greek haven't been spoken fluently for about 1800 years. So unless the KJV had some very old translators on it, none of them spoke fluent OT Hebrew and NT Greek. Beign well versed and knowledgeable about the language is another issue. The KJV were very knowledgeable and well versed in the language. The modern scholars are standing on their shoulders, knowing much more about the language than even the KJV translators knew. It is wonderful to see the hand of God in the presevation and translation of his word for modern people. I am thankful he does not make us rely only on 16th scholarship.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by michelle:
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What does your copy and post of scripture have to do with the NKJV?
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Have you not been reading the posts in this thread? Or are you having comprehension problems, or misunderstandings?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

I just don't see anything about the NKJV OR the KJV in any of those passages.

 

[michelle]

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THink with the mind of Christ, not with the mind of the world.
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The mind of Christ is humility.

This statement is an arrogant statement.

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It is? Then if it is so arrogant, then how come it is in the scriptures? I am only giving the advice that is given in the scriptures:


1 Corinthians 2

1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ziggy]

Michelle: “they are DIFFERENT enouph in meaning that makes a very important DISTINCTION. These words do not MEAN the same thing, nor is the SAME MEANING in the context and truth.”

Except *NO* Greek speaker from the first century to the present day could possibly tell the difference in *identical* words which were *never* rendered differently nor misunderstood in their appropriate context until someone after the mid-1960s decided that English translations overruled the Hebrew and Greek.

Michelle: “the English DEFINITIONS are what make the DISTINCTION of WHICH English WORD is appropriate and ACCURATE rendering of the GREEK, as has been shown along with CONTEXT AND TRUTH.”

This is the exact type of nonsense that for so long had been spouted by the Herbert W. Armstrong cult when it claimed two separate and distinct meanings of the single Greek verb KHRUSSW: “preached” in Mt 24:14 and “published” in the parallel passage Mk 13:10.

Armstrong crowed about how his cult was “preaching” via his radio and TV broadcasts, and “publishing” by means of his Plain Truth magazine, never realizing that the *same* Greek verb was involved in each case, and *never* with the meaning of “publish” as in printing press (“advanced revelation” I suppose). Seems like certain KJVO supporters are making separate but equal claims on the same basis.

Michelle: “It is not a King James Only argument.”

Indeed not. I’m forced to agree. It is *both* a KJVO *and* an Armstrong cult argument.

Michelle, do *you* think “preached” and “published” in the KJV have the distinction that Armstrong claimed? If not, why not? The words are clearly different in English, and by your own assertion *must* have different meanings, right?

 

[russell55]

Michelle,

Have you not been reading the posts in this thread? Or are you having comprehension problems....

Do you not realize how unbecoming these sorts of statements are?

 

[michelle]

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This is the exact type of nonsense that for so long had been spouted by the Herbert W. Armstrong cult when it claimed two separate and distinct meanings of the single Greek verb KHRUSSW: “preached” in Mt 24:14 and “published” in the parallel passage Mk 13:10.
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And the difference is in CONTEXT AND TRUTH in the SCRIPTURES and understanding the DEFINITIONS of English words in line with the TRUTH of the scriptures.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Indeed not. I’m forced to agree. It is *both* a KJVO *and* an Armstrong cult argument.
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You can believe this lie if you wish, however you are believing something that is a lie, and not at all the TRUTH as it has been CLEARLY shown to you.
I have done my christian duty, and out of love for the truth and for you all, I have shared this, and explained it the best I possible could. Now it is up to you, and the Lord willing, to convict your heart of this truth. I now leave it in His hands.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Do you not realize how unbecoming these sorts of statements are?
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I do not come here to be liked or respected by, nor to respect any man/person. I come here to share the truth, and expose the lie because I love the truth and others enouph to share it, and stand for it.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ziggy]

Michelle: "Now it is up to you, and the Lord willing, to convict your heart of this truth. I now leave it in His hands."

Modern translation: "I'm gonna cut and run...."

Michelle: "And the difference is in CONTEXT AND TRUTH in the SCRIPTURES and understanding the DEFINITIONS of English words in line with the TRUTH of the scriptures."

You still have not answered my question regarding the KJV translation of "preached" and "published" -- are there *two* separate meanings involved, or not? This is an issue of your own credibility, Michelle.

 

[russell55]

It is? Then if it is so arrogant, then how come it is in the scriptures?

Your statement is arrogant because you are telling me to think with the mind of Christ instead of the mind of the world because I don't agree with you. It's arrogant because you are setting yourself up as judge of what thinking with the mind of Christ is. You are suggesting that you do a better job of thinking with the mind of Christ than I do based simply on the fact that I disagreed with you on something.

Having the mind of Christ involves each one of us assuming that the other is better than we ourselves are. See Philippians 2. Do you think that those who are thinking with the mind of Christ, go around telling others they aren't thinking with the mind of Christ?

 

[michelle]

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You still have not answered my question regarding the KJV translation of "preached" and "published" -- are there *two* separate meanings involved, or not? This is an issue of your own credibility, Michelle
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The scriptures speak for themselves, and our English scriptures show quite well what is correct, and what is error. Yes, there are two separate meanings involved in those also, as the definitions of those words, in light of the CONTEXT and TRUTH also show this. Do you understand the difference of truth being explained in the context of these two different passages?


By the way, I don't come here to establish "my own credibility". I am here sharing the truth, and the truth will show forth on it's own, for it's own and on it's own credibility, not mine.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Your statement is arrogant because you are telling me to think with the mind of Christ instead of the mind of the world because I don't agree with you. It's arrogant because you are setting yourself up as judge of what thinking with the mind of Christ is. You are suggesting that you do a better job of thinking with the mind of Christ than I do based simply on the fact that I disagreed with you on something
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No, not at all. I am merely giving you good christian and scriptural advice concerning this issue, and reminding you of it.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[russell55]

I do not come here to be liked or respected by, nor to respect any man/person. I come here to share the truth, and expose the lie because I love the truth and others enouph to share it, and stand for it.

Loving others means instructing them in meekness--being polite to them, gaining respect in order to win them.

 

[michelle]

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Having the mind of Christ involves each one of us assuming that the other is better than we ourselves are. See Philippians 2. Do you think that those who are thinking with the mind of Christ, go around telling others they aren't thinking with the mind of Christ?
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I agree, however it should NEVER be at the EXPENSE OF TRUTH.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[russell55]

No, not at all. I am merely giving you good christian and scriptural advice concerning this issue, and reminding you of it.

But you don't know me, apart from a few posts here. You are in no position to give me spiritual advice. That's why there's a rule about giving unsolicited "spiritual advice". You would do well to follow that rule. Nothing hurts your cause more....

Okay, I'm done. Enough.

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by C4K:
What does your copy and post of scripture have to do with the NKJV?

Nothing. She is misusing the idea that Scripture interprets Scripture in order to support her claim. Unfortunately, the issue is what the pericope says ITSELF not what other Scriptures say about testifying to Christ. It's a red herring argument.

The bottom line is that she can't "win" the discussion based on the TR's own content. Nor can she "win" based on simple exegesis of the pericopes in John 5 and 8 respectively. She has to eisegete them and use Scripture to support her claim.

Michelle, you're the arrogant one. I'm simply using my own credentials to show exactly how arrogant you are. I'm one of the ones here that has an extremely high level of understanding and ability with the English language. What's arrogant is for you to condescendingly insinuate as you did a few pages ago that we have no understanding of our native language, as if you have "credentials." All you're doing is assuming the truth of what Askjo wrote and defending it, and not very well at that. I know, I know, now we'll get an appeal to emotion or some claim that it's God's Spirit that's telling you this, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Ziggy]

Michelle: "Yes, there are two separate meanings involved in those also"

Very good. Now will you please explain the two different meanings of "preached" and "published" so we too can understand the distinction to which you refer.

Michelle: "Do you understand the difference of truth being explained in the context of these two different passages?"

Frankly, no. I admit my utter ignorance on this point. Please enlighten me as to the "difference of truth" between the specific capitalized words in these two parallel passages. The texts are otherwise quite clear to me:

Mt 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Mk 13:10 "And the gospel must first be PUBLISHED among all nations."

 

[michelle]

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Loving others means instructing them in meekness--being polite to them, gaining respect in order to win them.
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But it NEVER calls for compromise with error at the expense of truth, which is not loving, nor respecting them, nor will win them to the truth. I cannot respect opinions that are contrary to the truth, and those who have been shown to continue to believe in that error, and claiming that error is truth. Of course this will not be taken as being meek, or respectful, or polite. It never is. This however, in no way means that I am guilty of not doing these things in this way.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle