New meaning for old verses

[Ed Edwards]

Seems some think this verse says:

John 6:37 (The Message ):
Every person the Father gives me
eventually comes running to me.
And once that person is with me,
I hold on and don't let go.

But this reading:
John 6:37 (TNIV = Today's New International Version)
All whom the Father gives me
will come to me,
and whoever comes to me
I will never drive away.

could mean what 'The Message' says or
could mean this:
All whom the Father gives me
will come to me.
(Those) and whoever (else) comes to me
I will never drive away.

which sounds a lot like this:Rom 10:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For whosoeuer shall call vpon
the Name of the Lord, shalbe saued.

Let me write part of it in the form of an
if-then statement:

Proposition #1
If the Father gives Me a person;
Then that person will come to me.
(proposition #1 is TRUE, the Bible said it)

However, the truth of if-then statement: Proposition #2
is independent of Proposition #1:

Proposition #2
If the Father gives Me NOT a person;
Then that person will NOT come to me.
(The truth value of this is unknown, we shall
discuss it, it must be proven by some other
scripture)

I've listed two scriputes that disprove proposition #2:
the second half of John 6:37 and Romans 10:13

Now, there is another true statement can be written
from Proposition #1: reverse the sense of both element
and reverse the order. Here we go:

Proposition #3
If a person comes NOT unto me;
The the Father gave NOT that person to me.
(This proposition #3 is true because proposition #1
was true - this is called 'transposition')
Transposition works like this, where 'p' & 'q' are
proposition elements:
(If p then q) = (if not-q then not-p)

Some people get proposition #2 and proposition #3
mixed up. God never mixes up simple stuff like this.

 

[npetreley]

Wrong. That Scripture says what it says. It is speaking of the security of those who come (v. 35), not drawn.

As Helen pointed out, alone these verses can very well say what you are saying. Let Scripture explain Scripture.

Same people. Look at the passage, which contains both the fact that the Father gives to Jesus, and the fact that nobody CAN come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

If anyone comes to Jesus, they must have been drawn by the Father, because nobody CAN come to Jesus any other way. Those who objected to what Jesus was saying didn't believe because (v36) the Father did not give them to Jesus and (v44) the Father did not draw them.

Finally, note that there are no exceptions. EVERYONE who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. Not one of them rejects Jesus. If the Father doesn't draw/give/grant, then they don't come to Jesus. No exceptions.

Then Jesus sums up the situation here...

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

.

 

[npetreley]

or
could mean this:
All whom the Father gives me
will come to me.
(Those) and whoever (else) comes to me
I will never drive away

The problem with this view is that the context of John 6:37 is about hammering home the fact that NOBODY can come to Him unless <the Father draws> and <the Father grants>. If the passage emphasized how anyone can come to Jesus, I might be inclined to consider the way you phrased it. However, when Jesus explained why people DIDN'T believe or come, He didn't say, "Well, they aren't those the Father gave me, but they MAY come sooner or later". No, He said, "They can't come. Nobody comes to me unless the Father <draws, enables> them."

 

[webdog]

The problem with this view is that the context of John 6:37 is about hammering home the fact that NOBODY can come to Him unless <the Father draws> and <the Father grants>. If the passage emphasized how anyone can come to Jesus, I might be inclined to consider the way you phrased it. However, when Jesus explained why people DIDN'T believe or come, He didn't say, "Well, they aren't those the Father gave me, but they MAY come sooner or later". No, He said, "They can't come. Nobody comes to me unless the Father <draws, enables> them."

You have just espoused fatalism.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Ok guys, it looks like I've stirred up a hornet's nest by studying reformed theology, but here are some verses that have always eluded me until I started looking at them differently (through the eyes of RF). There are many more, but we'll start here.


Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


If the Father draws someone, then they will come to the Son and will never be cast out. They will be saved. It's a done deal.

But not everyone comes to Christ. Why? Because they were not drawn by the Father. If they had been drawn by the Father, they would have come and they would have received eternal life.

The only conclusion is that not everyone is drawn by the Father. The Father does not give all of humanity to Christ. Only the ones that the Father gives will come to Christ because they have been drawn to Him by the Father.



We'll just start there and let the :tonofbricks: fall where they may. Which will probably be on my head. :laugh:

Be nice!

Your fatal error here, Amy, is that you have selected 3 verses from the Bible upon which to build a doctrinal conclusion without consideration of the rest of the entire Bible. Herein lies the path to a great amount of misunderstanding.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Here are more:
Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

They would have repented??? Why didn't God send them somebody like Jonah?
He evidently chose not to.


Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.

Again, God could have sent someone to Sodom. But, He didn't.

Okay Amy, I think maybe you ought to read these passages again. Nowhere does it say that that God sent no one to Tyre, Sidon or Sodom. Sodon at least had the influence of Lot and Abram. The plain sense of these verses is that God had a special reason for the miracles shown in Chorizan, Bethsaida and Capernaum, namely to give Isreal one last chance as a nation to accept the Messiah. It says nothing about the other cities not having the message to repent brought to them. It says everything about how hardhearted the nation of Isreal had become to the Word of God.

You should notice that Chorizan, Bethsaida and Capernaum all refer to Jewish settlement while the other cities are all Gentile/heathen cities. Jesus is in essence saying that if He had chosen any from the Gentiles to show His works to(as He did throughout the history of Isreal) those people would have already repented!

Sorry, but this can't be twisted into election. The nation of Isreal was elected. To what purpose? Only their own salvation? Uh huh. Look it up. The nation of Isreal was elected to bless the nations of the world because through this people would come the salvation of that world (not just the Jewish people!).

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Npet, I'm reposting you scripture but I'm going to add a few highlights of my own in blue. Did Christ just contradict himself? Or are those that the Father gives to the Son "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him"?

 

[npetreley]

Npet, I'm reposting you scripture but I'm going to add a few highlights of my own in blue. Did Christ just contradict himself? Or are those that the Father gives to the Son "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him"?

No contradiction. You assume that "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him" is an open invitation. It doesn't say that. You have to insert that assumption into the text. The text simply says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him". Now, who are these people, and how did they manage to see the Son and believe in Him? They are those who the Father gave Jesus, those who were drawn and enabled (granted). That's what the rest of the text says.

 

[Amy.G]

Your fatal error here, Amy, is that you have selected 3 verses from the Bible upon which to build a doctrinal conclusion without consideration of the rest of the entire Bible. Herein lies the path to a great amount of misunderstanding.

I selected those verses to start the discussion. I am not building an entire doctrine around 3 verses. That would be foolish.

There are many, many other verses that speak of predestination, election, being chosen, ect.

 

[Helen]

I selected those verses to start the discussion. I am not building an entire doctrine around 3 verses. That would be foolish.

There are many, many other verses that speak of predestination, election, being chosen, ect.

Amy, I think if you look at the 'predestination' verses, you will find that the believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and that the way this will be accomplished through the Holy Spirit was also predestined. But I do not think you will find anyplace where it is stated that God predestined who would believe. Read the verses carefully in context to see what they are actually saying.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I think if you look at the 'predestination' verses, you will find that the believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and that the way this will be accomplished through the Holy Spirit was also predestined. But I do not think you will find anyplace where it is stated that God predestined who would believe. Read the verses carefully in context to see what they are actually saying.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

God foreknew them
He predestined them
He called them
He justified them
He glorified them


Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

 

[Jarthur001]

Wrong. That Scripture says what it says. It is speaking of the security of those who come (v. 35), not drawn.

As Helen pointed out, alone these verses can very well say what you are saying. Let Scripture explain Scripture.

She is letting Scripture talk for itself. But you want Webdog to explain Scripture.....then you will be happy.

 

[Helen]

Just happened across this in Ez. 18:32 in connection with another thread. Thought it might be useful here:

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and live!

 

[Amy.G]

Just happened across this in Ez. 18:32 in connection with another thread. Thought it might be useful here:

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and live!

I don't believe this chapter is talking about salvation.


Eze 18:13 he lends {money} on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

This is talking about God holding individuals personally responsible for their own sins. They will be put to death if they do not repent.

 

[skypair]

Ok guys, it looks like I've stirred up a hornet's nest by studying reformed theology, but here are some verses that have always eluded me until I started looking at them differently (through the eyes of RF). There are many more, but we'll start here.


Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


If the Father draws someone, then they will come to the Son and will never be cast out. They will be saved. It's a done deal.

But not everyone comes to Christ. Why? Because they were not drawn by the Father. If they had been drawn by the Father, they would have come and they would have received eternal life.

The only conclusion is that not everyone is drawn by the Father. The Father does not give all of humanity to Christ. Only the ones that the Father gives will come to Christ because they have been drawn to Him by the Father.



We'll just start there and let the :tonofbricks: fall where they may. Which will probably be on my head. :laugh:

Be nice!

Woo! That's what Calvinists say. True? No.

Not everyone "comes" to Christ -- NOT because they are not "drawn" -- but because when drawn, they don't "come!" Face it -- God "drawn" does NOT mean "forces them to come." They have plenty of chance through God's drawing to "come," to repent, but they "draw back."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Amen, Amy. Oddly enough, one of the passages that started me on the road to reformed theology was the following:

Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’

...and part of the parallel passage...

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

So you DO understand the parables? Strange assertion -- cause I was thinking you didn't know what the KoH was.

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

So you DO understand the parables? Strange assertion -- cause I was thinking you didn't know what the KoH was.

skypair

Why would you say that?

 

[skypair]

Why would you say that?

'Nother thread, amy. The truth is, if pressed with the mysteries and parables and eschatology, most RT's are in a state of "arrested development" -- arrested by Calvinism/RT/CT. They started out alright (saved) but when a "fork" came up in the road, they took it. :laugh: The wrong one, I should say. That's why you don't see a lot of rapture, Matt 25:1-13, etal. debate around here.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Why would you say that?

Because he's skypair.

 

[Allan]

Ok guys, it looks like I've stirred up a hornet's nest by studying reformed theology, but here are some verses that have always eluded me until I started looking at them differently (through the eyes of RF). There are many more, but we'll start here.


Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


If the Father draws someone, then they will come to the Son and will never be cast out. They will be saved. It's a done deal.

But not everyone comes to Christ. Why? Because they were not drawn by the Father. If they had been drawn by the Father, they would have come and they would have received eternal life.

The only conclusion is that not everyone is drawn by the Father. The Father does not give all of humanity to Christ. Only the ones that the Father gives will come to Christ because they have been drawn to Him by the Father.



We'll just start there and let the :tonofbricks: fall where they may. Which will probably be on my head.

Be nice!

Mind if I drop my nickle in here?

It is funny how either side will sort-of stand up in arms to keep one of their (so-called) own from departing to the perverbial 'dark side' (invision darth vaders breathing here) :laugh:

But Amy I will say go as God reveals truth to you. I personally have studied Calvinism for a number of years (and many other views as well) but I do not hold to it because I believe it is lacking. Do I believe it is absolutely incorrect? By no means for through the study of it I have sharpened my understanding of scripture renewed a sense understanding regarding God I let slide or did not have a proper understanding of in the first place. You see, without it I could not have done what I intended on doing - trying to see if I could refute what I currently believed. It was and iron with which to sharpen my iron. What I have found is a balance which is not found in any one particular theolgoy (IMO) but a combination of understanding both. It has been rightly stated that no man will be able to hammer Gods Soveriegnty and Mans Responsiblity into one theology this side of heaven.

I have friends who went into Calvinism, and others who have come out of it. There are people on the BB who have done both the same. BOTH views have been around since the early Church, and God has brought Godly men from both sides of the spectrum. And it was God who gave them to understand the scriptures as He saw fit to give light to them. But study to show THYSELF approved UNTO God. I ENCOURAGE you to look at BOTH sides of the coin. If you are studying some verses that are somewhat elusive, then look at what BOTH camps say about it. Then do you own research and believe what you then understand as truth. But don't be so resolute that you will not have a teachable heart even after you have come to an understanding. Let God lead you into truth, and let the rest of us bark :laugh: .

Now about some of your elusive verses:
Chapter 6 John needs to be taken in context. One of the major problems about this chapter (like Romans 9) is that it CAN BE SEEN from two different persectives which seem to be complete opposites but in fact are not, they are two sides of the same coin - Gods Soveriegnty and Mans Responsibility. One of the first things you need to establish is just WHO it is that Jesus is speaking to.
Is He speaking to all men or is He speaking to the Jew? Answer: He is speaking to the Jews. Why is this imporant? It is very important in understanding the REASON God must draw THEM (the Jews) to Christ.

This is part of the problem found with John 6 issue of the 'Father drawing' because it is specific to Israel here.
Why? Becuase Israel (The Fathers Wife and chosen People unto Himself) was under a curse (blindness) for disobedience and rebellion therefore not all of Israel (in the National sense) was 'permitted' to come to Christ. This is why the term 'draw' is in the subjunctive mood and is why God was not 'drawing' them all.
So you can't apply this drawing of the Father beyond it's context. We might see principle(s) but we should not found primary doctrines upon secondary principles.

Next question: Does scripture identify WHO these people the Father will/have drawn are? Yes it does. John 17:6,8,12. Jesus current 12 (actaully 11) Disciples from the Jews.

In fact we see later on that Jesus declares it will no longer be the Father who will be 'drawing' anymore but Christ Himself when He declared "and I, if I be lifted up I will draw all [men] unto myself."
Why? Because the promise was to exend beyond the Jewish Nation (Gods people and wife, whom God set aside for time that Christ might make for Himself a Bride using part of His own) to those outside its ethnic and religous boundries (Gentile followers of Jewish beliefs). Christ's Bride is to be made up of the multitude of mankind. Granted it was founded and established by Jewish people whom God gave to His son but they are not the whole of those whom Christ has drawn to Himself.

How will Christ draw all men unto unto Himself?
First, is by the same turths God gave from the beginning Romans 1 and 2 - Nature and the Conscience. And if a person will believe the natural things which God reveals to them by the Holy Spirit. (John 3:11-12) Then by that same Spirit God will reveal more through His Spirit who has come into the world and who's ministry it is(or part of His ministry) to convict the WORLD of Sin, His Righteousness, and Judgment to Come, which God has set forth. The Trinity working is unison and in accordance to God predetermined plan.

Also about those whom Jesus is speaking to in John 6 is that though Jesus declares they do not believe, even though They Have Seen Him (remember this part for context in a minute) He also declares He is the Bread GIVEN FOR THEM.

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Do we or do we not see God giving Christ (who gives life) to those who will reject Him? Yep and it is mirrored in vs 33:

Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

So we see Christ has been given to them by the Father but look at verse 36 for the context of passage you find elusive:

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Then Jesus states all who will come to Him will do so at the Fathers drawing. Note He does not say the Father draws all men since we see in Chatper 17 it was only a specific group the Father was to draw to Christ, FOR THE PURPOSE of establishing or beginning the foundation of His Church - the 11. So when we see:

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

We know Jesus will not disobey the Father by casting out those God sends Him, because those God sends Him are the foundation and beginning of His Bride.
SO THIS IS ONE GROUP - the Apostles.
But look at the NEXT WILL OF GOD

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Does this sound familar?? Remember verse 36 - they saw and did not believe. This speaks directly to verse 36 and is SPECIFIC to the Jewish believers who would be in Christ but NOT the Apostles in other words - those whom God gave Christ. In Chapter 17 we see Jesus praying for those who will believe because of their (the apostles whom the Father Gave) words.

This by context is about Christ and the Jews, and to go beyone the context to superimpose an overarching dynamic that is assumedly there. And it is to dismiss other scriptures that speak of after His resurrection to a different manner than was previously done. Like Christ and not the Father doing the drawing. And another is that Christ will draw all men (not relegated to the Jews only) unlike the Father who only drew a limited number from His chosen people- Israel. And many others.

But as I said - Search the truth out for yourself sister and let God be true, and let the rest of us just bark.
I can go much deeper by context but not enough room, and your already getting light headed at reading all this

 

[npetreley]

But Amy I will say go as God reveals truth to you.

Having said that, you then proceed to write a diatribe on why she should think your way.

You guys crack me up.