New Study Suggests U.S. Christians Are More Like Pharisees Than Christ

[Darrell C]

Yea.....the state of New Jersey is pretty Godless. This Sunday I visited a church that had two "Target Like" bathrooms for transgenders.......AGAIN IN A CHURCH (Non Denom) ....so should I join them & accept as normal a LGBT Lifestyle? Its sin Darrell but this entire church has embraced it. Next what.....Women pastors, abortions, say OK to drugs, blah, blah, blah.

And how many of the fellowships you have attended had these? And you are fairly certain that everyone in that fellowship was okay with it? I just have a hard time reconciling your judgment of everyone in New Jersey (except yourself) and what is typical of most fellowships. I dunno, maybe you do know the hearts of everyone in New Jersey.





God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, In short peoples lives are changed by encounters with the HS. My life absolutely has been changed for the better.....to the point, I'm no longer an angry man, I love all but can be discerning to their telling me that they are saved.....when they do not change their behavior (and unfortunately are very un Christ Like).

The one change is an encounter with God on a salvific level, EWF. From there is the growth process, and some grow more rapidly than others, and some grow at exceedingly slow paces. And growth is, in my view, in dependence of a sound diet that feeds that which encourages spiritual growth. So my first view is always going to be at the leadership a believer is under, and when we have those professing to be Christians who do not evidence the changed man, we cannot immediately assume there is no salvation, because the primary problem may lie with what they are being taught.

That does not mean I deny the evidences of genuine conversion, nor overlook the lack of fruit in a professing believer's life, it just means that often we can expect behavior from babes that is without question...questionable. And I think we should take that seriously in our efforts to teach, because it is a prominent theme in the Bible.

Our interaction with the Holy Spirit does not come in encounters, it is simply the basis of our salvation which is 24/7 until the day we are called home. Coming into obedience to Him is not something we are born again with, it is something He teaches us as we grow. And I can say from experience, that sometimes people remain in fellowships with questionable Doctrine and Practice because of their love for the people there. I myself have stayed in a congregation for years which I have realized may not be the best fellowship for me, but, because of people who go there, I have stayed. There is nothing quite so drastic as gender neutral bathrooms, lol, but, there are some issues which can sometimes interfere with my worship. You know how critical I am about Doctrine, so perhaps you can imagine how it is to listen to sermons that have errors I perceive.

As far as people telling you they are saved, how does this occur? You ask them? They volunteer the information? Or do you simply mean the general profession because they are attending? Or do you mean the fellowship you have been engaging in through in-ho0me fellowship?

And this is why Ive had such a difficult time finding a church family......primarily because most people think they are saved but don't show any indication they really are. Most feel that by joining a church they are getting into heaven when they still live secular worldly life styles.

So the church you decide on has to meet...your expectations.

Do you live such an exemplary life that you could not be called into question by some of them for your own actions?

Doesn't your statement here resemble a pharisaical attitude rather than one of love for others who are sinners like as you?

So tell me, what exactly is it that you think these heathens should be doing to come into your good grace?

But yes there are remnants....people who have given their lives to Him & are walking the walk & talking the talk. Those types I love with an exceeding life....they are the brethren, the fellow believers who are very much dedicated to loving & being the "Salt of the Earth & the Light of the World.'

Is it Christ-like to love only those that meet a certain standard? Especially when it a standard you have devised?

EWF, have you ever considered that many people despise the Church of Christ because they feel that the Church does not actually present the love they see in the Word of God?

You are saying that you are only going to love those who evidence they are genuinely saved and do works that prove that. Is that how God looks upon the lost?

Or His children?

Is there a Christian alive...that deserves God's love? He does not demand that men meet a standard to love them, or save them. Should we not replicate that love and...

...first love the lost?

so I hope that answers your questions.

Pretty much.


God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And how many of the fellowships you have attended had these? And you are fairly certain that everyone in that fellowship was okay with it? I just have a hard time reconciling your judgment of everyone in New Jersey (except yourself) and what is typical of most fellowships. I dunno, maybe you do know the hearts of everyone in New Jersey.





God bless.

I am that good....

But what you are not getting is that I am judging these people by the church they are associate with. Generally the pace & tone are set by the Pastor & some other officers of the church. And so that's what I am observing more than anything. All the UN-Biblical activity is just one earmark. Another is how questions are answered....like do you have a constitution, a set of doctrines you follow etc How about the simple question about how the Great Commission are carried out, or how to you cultivate & make disciples....or do you believe in water baptism? Trust me, I IS REAL REAL DISCERNING (with the guidance of the HS)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The one change is an encounter with God on a salvific level, EWF. From there is the growth process, and some grow more rapidly than others, and some grow at exceedingly slow paces. And growth is, in my view, in dependence of a sound diet that feeds that which encourages spiritual growth. So my first view is always going to be at the leadership a believer is under, and when we have those professing to be Christians who do not evidence the changed man, we cannot immediately assume there is no salvation, because the primary problem may lie with what they are being taught.

Taught by whom? Are you suggesting that we young Christians must be under false prophets.....I hope not!

That does not mean I deny the evidences of genuine conversion, nor overlook the lack of fruit in a professing believer's life, it just means that often we can expect behavior from babes that is without question...questionable. And I think we should take that seriously in our efforts to teach, because it is a prominent theme in the Bible.

Darrell.....if you dont know this by now, let me enunciate it, "I take a True Bible Believing, New Testament church very seriously..... VERY SERIOUS INDEED!"So much so that I have done an extensive search (and I'm still at it). But perhaps we are at the stage that they are very few & far between. So much so that I will have to drive far out of my community to belong to one. And personally that bothers me. My ancestors had solid churches (at the very least one) every few blocks.
Come to the Scranton Wilks area & I will show you those communities, there was never a void area ....not like this. My God, the community revolved around them....they would take abandoned or older houses in communities & create home churches (the old people could walk to)....thus preserving a Godly spirit driven community. But in NJ you have to drive for an hour or more to find something?!? Frankly its discouraging. I cant get to meetings, I cant go to evening or Wednesday night services, I really cant meet with the brethren....so whats the point?

Our interaction with the Holy Spirit does not come in encounters, it is simply the basis of our salvation which is 24/7 until the day we are called home. Coming into obedience to Him is not something we are born again with, it is something He teaches us as we grow. And I can say from experience, that sometimes people remain in fellowships with questionable Doctrine and Practice because of their love for the people there. I myself have stayed in a congregation for years which I have realized may not be the best fellowship for me, but, because of people who go there, I have stayed. There is nothing quite so drastic as gender neutral bathrooms, lol, but, there are some issues which can sometimes interfere with my worship. You know how critical I am about Doctrine, so perhaps you can imagine how it is to listen to sermons that have errors I perceive.

Sorry but I will not compromise......If I did that, I may as well tell the holy spirit that he should not have bothered to pull me out of the bondage of the RCC apostates. After all, I have many family & friends there whom I love.....so why God did you open my eyes only for me to fall back into apostasy? NOPE AINT A GONNA HAPPEN! My love, above all, is for HIM first.

As far as people telling you they are saved, how does this occur? You ask them? (YES)

They volunteer the information?(sometimes) Or do you simply mean the general profession because they are attending?(That too....they think they are)

Or do you mean the fellowship you have been engaging in through in-ho0me fellowship?
(Well they are a different sort---they know they are sinners who have been provided saving grace & they act accordingly to change their lives.....they are dedicated to Him)

So the church you decide on has to meet...your expectations.

No not mine----read Acts

Do you live such an exemplary life that you could not be called into question by some of them for your own actions?----YES, now I do, Praise God.

Doesn't your statement here resemble a pharisaical attitude rather than one of love for others who are sinners like as you?---I love everyone, did the Pharisees?

So tell me, what exactly is it that you think these heathens should be doing to come into your good grace?---Accept as their Lord & Savior




Is it Christ-like to love only those that meet a certain standard? Especially when it a standard you have devised? (No he came to save sinners....dont you know that?)

EWF, have you ever considered that many people despise the Church of Christ because they feel that the Church does not actually present the love they see in the Word of God?Absolutely....so why is that? Why doesn't the church......arent they commanded to?

You are saying that you are only going to love those who evidence they are genuinely saved and do works that prove that. Is that how God looks upon the lost?Thats not what I am saying at all.

.

 

[Darrell C]

I am that good....

So was the Pharisee.

But what you are not getting is that I am judging these people by the church they are associate with.

And what you are not getting is that you are judging people you cannot possibly know.

How many fellowships have you attended that have gender neutral bathrooms, for example.

And just what kind of churches are you visiting anyway? That is another aspect to this: what about fellowships not specific to what you are looking for? I typically visit independent and Southern Baptist fellowships. I have on occasion visited Methodist, Presbyterian, and even a Mennonite fellowship near us (very nice people but they separate the men from the women, that was a little strange).

So is there a specific group you visit, or are you visiting them all? If you have not visited them all, then again, you simply cannot judge them all.

Tell me a location near where you live and I can guarantee I can find you a fellowship. I looked up Scranton Wilks but nothing came up for that as a location.

Generally the pace & tone are set by the Pastor & some other officers of the church. And so that's what I am observing more than anything.

And that is not the same as knowing the folk that go there. That is what I am driving at.

All the UN-Biblical activity is just one earmark

What else, besides gender neutral bathrooms (and I am still waiting for an answer to that)?

Another is how questions are answered....like do you have a constitution, a set of doctrines you follow etc

And you demand this because...?

Are you looking for a fellowship that has their own, or must it conform to an ancient document?

How about the simple question about how the Great Commission are carried out,

The Great Commission is not carried out just by organized fellowship, that is something every believer should be busy about, and the truth is, there are just some people who don't know how to do that.

Its been my experience to see that evangelists are far and few between. Most are just regular folk.

So what is it that a fellowship was doing that would satisfy you?

or how to you cultivate & make disciples....

Most I've seen view that process as bringing people into the Church and discipling through the studies that take place there. When I was younger I dated an Assemblies of God woman and their fellowship (which was a very conservative Charismatic group) had regular services but they also had home group studies. Yet I have never been to a Baptist Church that does that.

So what would it take to satisfy you in regards to this issue?

or do you believe in water baptism?

Meaning what? That they believe water baptism is or is not salvific?

Trust me, I IS REAL REAL DISCERNING (with the guidance of the HS)

At least you hope it is the Lord leading you.

Sometimes we can lead ourselves in our thinking. I can look back and see that I have left some fellowships for reasons that weren't really valid. But of course, that could never happen to one as discerning as you, I speak of myself.




Godb less.

 

[Darrell C]

Taught by whom? Are you suggesting that we young Christians must be under false prophets.....I hope not!

Not sure how you arrive at this conclusion from what I said.

Here it is again:

Darrell C said: ↑

The one change is an encounter with God on a salvific level, EWF. From there is the growth process, and some grow more rapidly than others, and some grow at exceedingly slow paces. And growth is, in my view, in dependence of a sound diet that feeds that which encourages spiritual growth. So my first view is always going to be at the leadership a believer is under, and when we have those professing to be Christians who do not evidence the changed man, we cannot immediately assume there is no salvation, because the primary problem may lie with what they are being taught.


Your statement...

Earth Wind and Fire said: ↑

Darrell, In short peoples lives are changed by encounters with the HS. My life absolutely has been changed for the better.....to the point, I'm no longer an angry man, I love all but can be discerning to their telling me that they are saved.....when they do not change their behavior (and unfortunately are very un Christ Like).


The point was twofold: first, you speak of "encounters with the Holy Spirit" as though this is something sporadic. Perhaps you meant conversion, but your comment seems to indicate progressive sanctification is in view. That progression of growth is not accomplished with encounters, but through the strengthened relationship with the Spirit of God.

Secondly, I am addressing this from the perspective of your disdain for apparently everyone in your area, when the fact is more likely you are simply being judgmental, looking for the perfect Church, which is...the Church that meets your expectations and believes what you do.

Hey, most of us are like that, so I understand. But as it has been said, if you find that church, don't join it, you'll just wreck it.

The second point is summed up thus: you can expect failure on the part of most in any given congregation. Because most are going to be at various levels of growth, and this is dependent on the teaching they are receiving. And the sad fact is that these days it is thought that having a paper in a frame hanging on a wall means that the person having it...is not a novice. I know that in my line of work, book smarts means very little, it is field experience that teaches.

And sadly, the Pastor mills are producing a lower quality product these days.

But again, no idea how you come to your conclusion, I actually point out that the leadership is who I feel is the first line of responsibility in regards to the congregation.

Darrell.....if you dont know this by now, let me enunciate it, "I take a True Bible Believing, New Testament church very seriously..... VERY SERIOUS INDEED!"

So does most everyone else, EWF, lol. But the assumption you are running under is that you are the one that is correct.

So does most everyone else, lol.

What if some of the things you reject, which keep you from certain fellowships...are correct, and you are wrong about it, and you are keeping yourself from local fellowships that are alive and active? Can you even consider that something like that might be true?

For example, been to any dispensational fellowships in your area? And I mean ones that are diehard Pre-Tribulation Rapture adherents?

And I'll break this up right here, because I would like an answer to that one, lol.

And please don't answer in the quote.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

So much so that I have done an extensive search (and I'm still at it).

I would be too.

But perhaps we are at the stage that they are very few & far between. So much so that I will have to drive far out of my community to belong to one. And personally that bothers me. My ancestors had solid churches (at the very least one) every few blocks.
Come to the Scranton Wilks area & I will show you those communities, there was never a void area ....not like this

Have you ever really investigated the theology of your "ancestors?" I have found many of the older faiths are very questionable.

But the sad fact is that America is a different place, even from 30 years ago. But we can still find some pretty good fellowships, even if they don't meet the standard we think they should, lol.

My God,

And your ancestors would have horse whipped you for taking God's name in vain.

the community revolved around them....they would take abandoned or older houses in communities & create home churches (the old people could walk to)....thus preserving a Godly spirit driven community.

Its a different America. Again, none of that means anything if it was just a religious effort. I would need to know the doctrine.

But in NJ you have to drive for an hour or more to find something?!?

You need to find a good fundamental Baptist Church.

Frankly its discouraging. I cant get to meetings, I cant go to evening or Wednesday night services, I really cant meet with the brethren....so whats the point?

The point is to keep looking.


Continued...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So was the Pharisee.





And what you are not getting is that you are judging people you cannot possibly know.

How many fellowships have you attended that have gender neutral bathrooms, for example.

And just what kind of churches are you visiting anyway? That is another aspect to this: what about fellowships not specific to what you are looking for? I typically visit independent and Southern Baptist fellowships. I have on occasion visited Methodist, Presbyterian, and even a Mennonite fellowship near us (very nice people but they separate the men from the women, that was a little strange).

So is there a specific group you visit, or are you visiting them all? If you have not visited them all, then again, you simply cannot judge them all.

Tell me a location near where you live and I can guarantee I can find you a fellowship. I looked up Scranton Wilks but nothing came up for that as a location.




And that is not the same as knowing the folk that go there. That is what I am driving at.




What else, besides gender neutral bathrooms (and I am still waiting for an answer to that)?




And you demand this because...?

Are you looking for a fellowship that has their own, or must it conform to an ancient document?




The Great Commission is not carried out just by organized fellowship, that is something every believer should be busy about, and the truth is, there are just some people who don't know how to do that.

Its been my experience to see that evangelists are far and few between. Most are just regular folk.

So what is it that a fellowship was doing that would satisfy you?




Most I've seen view that process as bringing people into the Church and discipling through the studies that take place there. When I was younger I dated an Assemblies of God woman and their fellowship (which was a very conservative Charismatic group) had regular services but they also had home group studies. Yet I have never been to a Baptist Church that does that.

So what would it take to satisfy you in regards to this issue?




Meaning what? That they believe water baptism is or is not salvific?




At least you hope it is the Lord leading you.

Sometimes we can lead ourselves in our thinking. I can look back and see that I have left some fellowships for reasons that weren't really valid. But of course, that could never happen to one as discerning as you, I speak of myself.




Godb less.

OMG.....you are spending way to much time on this......Chill out, I know what I am doing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would be too.


Have you ever really investigated the theology of your "ancestors?" I have found many of the older faiths are very questionable.

But the sad fact is that America is a different place, even from 30 years ago. But we can still find some pretty good fellowships, even if they don't meet the standard we think they should, lol.




And your ancestors would have horse whipped you for taking God's name in vain.




Its a different America. Again, none of that means anything if it was just a religious effort. I would need to know the doctrine.




You need to find a good fundamental Baptist Church.




The point is to keep looking.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Our interaction with the Holy Spirit does not come in encounters, it is simply the basis of our salvation which is 24/7 until the day we are called home. Coming into obedience to Him is not something we are born again with, it is something He teaches us as we grow. And I can say from experience, that sometimes people remain in fellowships with questionable Doctrine and Practice because of their love for the people there. I myself have stayed in a congregation for years which I have realized may not be the best fellowship for me, but, because of people who go there, I have stayed. There is nothing quite so drastic as gender neutral bathrooms, lol, but, there are some issues which can sometimes interfere with my worship. You know how critical I am about Doctrine, so perhaps you can imagine how it is to listen to sermons that have errors I perceive.

Sorry but I will not compromise.....

It's not a compromise to stay somewhere when you know leaving will likely impact others.

And the differences of doctrine I see in my own views and that of the leadership are not drastic, though I still see them as important. I have more of a problem with how they view certain things. One of my Pastors is absolutely against Doctrinal Debate, lol, and thinks that all teaching should be done in the church. I disagree with one of my Pastor's position concerning atheists, as well. He does not believe witnessing to them can do any good. He considers them all fools without hope. I don't. There is absolutely no-one I will refuse to witness to, and though debate doesn't arise too much in the field, sometimes there is a call for that as well. Especially when they are liberal atheists, who often tends to be far more religious than myself.

If I did that, I may as well tell the holy spirit that he should not have bothered to pull me out of the bondage of the RCC apostates.

Oh ho, so you have a beef with Catholics, lol. Great. Do you think there are no sincere born again believers among Catholics?

After all, I have many family & friends there whom I love.....so why God did you open my eyes only for me to fall back into apostasy?

You need to learn what it means to be apostate.

And if having erroneous doctrine means one is apostate, then everyone is in serious trouble, lol.

Except you, of course, because you are correct about everything, right?

NOPE AINT A GONNA HAPPEN!

What, you mean going somewhere the Lord leads you? Sorry to hear that.

My love, above all, is for HIM first.

I think most like to think that is true of themselves. Maybe even some of them apostates and pharisees as well.

No not mine----read Acts

I've read it. Seems to me that Paul spent quite a bit of time debating with folk who had different beliefs than he did. He was willing, as were other disciples, to risk his life, go to prison, be beaten, do without.

I agree, that is a great picture of loving God first and foremost.

But give me an area close to where you live, EWF, I'll find you a fellowship.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Calvinistic Welsh Methodist, Particular Baptist & Congregational. All Calvinistic.

Maybe you should learn a little more about the Doctrine of other fellowships in your area. Then you might be able to attend a local Spirit-filled congregation.




God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinistic Welsh Methodist, Particular Baptist & Congregational. All Calvinistic.

 

[Darrell C]

OMG

Your ancestors are rolling over in their grave, amigo.

.you are spending way to much time on this

Not at all, you are worth the time, EWF.

Chill out, I know what I am doing.

Of course you do.

Why do you think I am spending all this time?





God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Calvinistic Welsh Methodist, Particular Baptist & Congregational. All Calvinistic.

So you think God regenerates men so they can understand the Gospel and have faith?


God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's not a compromise to stay somewhere when you know leaving will likely impact others.

And the differences of doctrine I see in my own views and that of the leadership are not drastic, though I still see them as important. I have more of a problem with how they view certain things. One of my Pastors is absolutely against Doctrinal Debate, lol, and thinks that all teaching should be done in the church. I disagree with one of my Pastor's position concerning atheists, as well. He does not believe witnessing to them can do any good. He considers them all fools without hope. I don't. There is absolutely no-one I will refuse to witness to, and though debate doesn't arise too much in the field, sometimes there is a call for that as well. Especially when they are liberal atheists, who often tends to be far more religious than myself.




Oh ho, so you have a beef with Catholics, lol. Great. Do you think there are no sincere born again believers among Catholics?




You need to learn what it means to be apostate.

And if having erroneous doctrine means one is apostate, then everyone is in serious trouble, lol.

Except you, of course, because you are correct about everything, right?




What, you mean going somewhere the Lord leads you? Sorry to hear that.




I think most like to think that is true of themselves. Maybe even some of them apostates and pharisees as well.



I've read it. Seems to me that Paul spent quite a bit of time debating with folk who had different beliefs than he did. He was willing, as were other disciples, to risk his life, go to prison, be beaten, do without.

I agree, that is a great picture of loving God first and foremost.

But give me an area close to where you live, EWF, I'll find you a fellowship.




God bless.

look.....your exhibiting an obsessive/compulsive behavior......do you take any meds for that?

Anyway this conversation is over.

 

[tyndale1946]

OMG.....you are spending way to much time on this......Chill out, I know what I am doing.

Steve in all seriousness an correct me if I step out of line let me tell you the story of two ladies who moved into the San Diego area and started a bible study... This was back in I believe the latter of 1920 and early 1930... They would meet and have a little study and pray that God would send a minister in their midst and they could start a church... The reason I know this story it is how my church Little Bethany Primitive Baptist Church came to be... Two of Gods children prayed to God for a place of worship and God answered that call... The church was incorporated in 1939 and although it took until 1958 to erect a building to worship in as they worshipped in rented spaces until then... The members built their own church... I know because I helped build it at the age of twelve... I have not walked in your shoes and don't claim to have but have you ever thought of starting a house church?... Its worked before who knows?... Just a thought... Brother Glen

 

[Darrell C]

look.....your exhibiting an obsessive/compulsive behavior......do you take any meds for that?

Anyway this conversation is over.

No, but pizza usually calms me down. Probably something to do with digestion, though, that would be my guess.

So you're not going to tell me how many of these fellowships have had gender neutral bathrooms and the other evils these heathens are committing?

And you're not going to tell me if you have tried any Independent or Southern Baptist fellowships?

And you're not going to tell me if you think God regenerates men so they can understand the Gospel and come to faith in Christ?

Okay, I guess I can't blame you. If I were a Spirit-filled person like you I probably wouldn't talk to a punk like me either.




God bless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Steve in all seriousness an correct me if I step out of line let me tell you the story of two ladies who moved into the San Diego area and started a bible study... This was back in I believe the latter of 1920 and early 1930... They would meet and have a little study and pray that God would send a minister in their midst and they could start a church... The reason I know this story it is how my church Little Bethany Primitive Baptist Church came to be... Two of Gods children prayed to God for a place of worship and God answered that call... The church was incorporated in 1939 and although it took until 1958 to erect a building to worship in as they worshipped in rented spaces until then... The members built their own church... I know because I helped build it at the age of twelve... I have not walked in your shoes and don't claim to have but have you ever thought of starting a house church?... Its worked before who knows?... Just a thought... Brother Glen

Glen...we already meet in my house...but have no big church sponcer. Anyway I don't want to be anybodies pastor...I'd rather someone trained up in it do the heavy lifting. However I'm not going to shy away fromthe stepping in and doing my best.

 

[tyndale1946]

Glen...we already meet in my house...but have no big church sponcer. Anyway I don't want to be anybodies pastor...I'd rather someone trained up in it do the heavy lifting. However I'm not going to shy away fromthe stepping in and doing my best.

The PB's don't have any big church sponsor either... Do you think you need one?... Remember my story... PB Churches are individual in their own right... There is no main HQ... The messenger and the congregation... I've seen preachers shy away just like you... You do your best and you may be surprised... The Lord knows your heart!... Face it and embrace it... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The PB's don't have any big church sponsor either... Do you think you need one?... Remember my story... PB Churches are individual in their own right... There is no main HQ... The messenger and the congregation... I've seen preachers shy away just like you... You do your best and you may be surprised... The Lord knows your heart!... Face it and embrace it... Brother Glen

The PB's Glen have always been there for me in my walk with Christ & for that I am eternally grateful.

Thanks
Steve