New Testament Quotations of the Old Testament

[loDebar]

So what are you saying? That the inspired writers like Matthew, Paul, Peter, James, made "lax renderings" when their Greek statements don't exactly match the way it is written in Hebrew?

English itself is variable on word meanings . Lax Renderings, are less evident in Greek as co pared to Hebrew, just the differences in languages. The Greek translation of a Hebrew quote cannot pose a different meaning than the original, or it is not a quote. The inspiration must continue , but do not suggest the Greek takes inspirational precedence over the Hebrew, especially when we have original in Hebrew.

If I quoted you, yet used different meanings, in any language, would I be true?

 

[loDebar]

This is a really good, intriguing question, but the answer is not a simple "He wouldn't."

And He didn't.

 

[Baptist Believer]

And He didn't.

The Bible lays waste to many man-made theories unless you harden yourself against the authority of the scriptures to maintain what makes you most comfortable.

Do not harden yourself.

You are making the mistake of judging ancient writings according to modern post-"Enlightenment" presuppositions.

 

[rsr]

Early English Translations and word "church"

Early English Translations and word "church"

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus spoke Aramaic and Hebrew. He probably knew Greek as well but He would not have quoted Hebrew scriptures in Greek to Hebrew scholars who knew Hebrew scriptures very well

Please show m a verse that was Greek spoken by Jesus

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 And some of them stood there, when they heard it, said, This man calleth Elijah. Mt 27

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elijah. Mk 15

Supposedly, according to some, He's speaking Hebrew in Matthew and Aramaic in Mark. Two things come to mind; (1) it seems the language he spoke was NOT readily understood, and, (2) the writers make a SPECIAL NOTE of His exact words, i.e., implying this was not His normal language.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Supposedly, according to some, He's speaking Hebrew in Matthew and Aramaic in Mark. Two things come to mind; (1) it seems the language he spoke was NOT readily understood, and, (2) the writers make a SPECIAL NOTE of His exact words, i.e., implying this was not His normal language.

My college Greek professor proposed that Jesus did much of His teaching in Greek, and this is one of the reasons.

 

[rlvaughn]

(2) the writers make a SPECIAL NOTE of His exact words, i.e., implying this was not His normal language.

I think the main reason for recording "Eli, Eli" is that makes the link to hearing something that sounded like Elijah. When you just write it in Greek -- "TheoMou" -- the reader would probably wonder why anyone thought that sounded like calling for Elijah.

 

[loDebar]

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 And some of them stood there, when they heard it, said, This man calleth Elijah. Mt 27

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elijah. Mk 15

Supposedly, according to some, He's speaking Hebrew in Matthew and Aramaic in Mark. Two things come to mind; (1) it seems the language he spoke was NOT readily understood, and, (2) the writers make a SPECIAL NOTE of His exact words, i.e., implying this was not His normal language.

It was not the listener's normal language, thus the confusion and translation. He spoke one language, Hebrew, of quote Psalms 22 or an Aramaic version.


34 And in the athsha shaiyn {the ninth hour}, Eshu {Yeshua} cried out in a qala rama {a loud voice}, and said, Iyl! Iyl! lamana shabaqthani, which is, “Alahi! Alahi! lamana shabaqthani {My God! My God! Why have you left Me}?

 

[loDebar]

My college Greek professor proposed that Jesus did much of His teaching in Greek, and this is one of the reasons.

I think He might have used Greek to the masses but we know His ministry was first to Israel, I think it was Aramaic socially but Hebrew for religious talks.

 

[kyredneck]

I think the main reason for recording "Eli, Eli" is that makes the link to hearing something that sounded like Elijah. When you just write it in Greek -- "TheoMou" -- the reader would probably wonder why anyone thought that sounded like calling for Elijah.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I believe He spoke in Greek much of the time. I don't understand why He would quote the LXX in Hebrew, or Aramaic.

 

[rlvaughn]

It was not the listener's normal language, thus the confusion and translation.

That's hard to ascertain from the context. Them that stood by -- according to both Matthew and Mark -- included the chief priests, scribes and elders. They would have known Hebrew and Aramaic.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I would add, that though there are many OT quotes in the NT that almost verbatim to the Greek LXX version of the OT, rather than the MT Hebrew text, I cannot accept that they were actually quoting from the LXX itself. The LXX, like the Latin Vulgate, the AV, etc, etc, are only "translations" of the original Hebrew and Greek Bible, and therefore cannot be "θεόπνευστος", as the originals are. The LXX itself was produced by some of the best Hebrew and Greek scholars of its time, and used the Hebrew manuscripts that were available to them. It is this Hebrew underlying text that I believe that the writers of the NT used in their quotes. If, writers like Luke may not have known the Hebrew language, they could have done what Jerome did for the Latin Vulgate, and get Hebrew scholars to assist them. I know this is more conjecture than actual facts, but I cannot accept that the writers of the NT quoted from a "version" (LXX) of the OT, as it would not be "θεόπνευστος", and the entire Holy Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, in the original languages, is 100% "θεόπνευστος".

 

[loDebar]

I think the main reason for recording "Eli, Eli" is that makes the link to hearing something that sounded like Elijah. When you just write it in Greek -- "TheoMou" -- the reader would probably wonder why anyone thought that sounded like calling for Elijah.

i agree but the Aramaic Alahi! could be thought to be Elias

 

[loDebar]

That's hard to ascertain from the context. Them that stood by -- according to both Matthew and Mark -- included the chief priests, scribes and elders. They would have known Hebrew and Aramaic.

others were present as well, who were more likely to react to the condemned

Mar 15:35
And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

 

[kyredneck]

I don't understand why He would quote the LXX in Hebrew, or Aramaic.

....especially since He's the Author of the original....

 

[rlvaughn]

I believe He spoke in Greek much of the time. I don't understand why He would quote the LXX in Hebrew, or Aramaic.

I don't suggest that he did. But Matthew and Mark were writing in Greek, which is that to which I referred.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I don't suggest that he did. But Matthew and Mark were writing in Greek, which is that to which I referred.

the very early Church father, Papias (died about 100 A.D.), said that Matthew wrote originally in Hebrew/Aramiac

 

[rlvaughn]

the very early Church father, Papias (died about 100 A.D.), said that Matthew wrote originally in Hebrew/Aramiac

It is correct that Papias said or wrote that, but I was referring to the writings that we have that are extant. I'm not aware of any surviving Hebrew/Aramaic copy(ies) of the Gospel of Matthew.

 

[loDebar]

Josephus wrote:

"I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains." —Antiquities of Jews XX, XI.

He says Greek was not common among the Jews when he wrote this in the1st Century

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Josephus wrote:

"I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains." —Antiquities of Jews XX, XI.

He says Greek was not common among the Jews when he wrote this in the1st Century

I am sure Josephus was referring to the common Jew, and not the learned one. It is like when Latin first became the language of the Western Church, it was only those who had an educated upbringing that were able to make use of this.