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I will read the articles you sent; I have read some of Robin S. stuff. I think I used to have a homeschooling book by her, maybe. Anyway, thank you for your prayers. First off a hint for a newby: the whole Calvinism issue is a big point of contention here on the BB. Its been argued and will be argued until the Kingdom comes, so if you aren't looking to debate that particular subject, don't bring it up.
Modesty is also a contentious issue here and you will hear a variety of opinions.
For *me* modesty has more to do with attitude than clothing styles. Who are you presenting with your dress, God or yourself? Does Christ show clearly in your life?
Of secondary concern: where are you planted? Is your manner of dress going to make it easier or harder to present your faith to others? In *my* area, the skirt wearing crowd is completely ignored. Too many here have been told over and over again that this issue (and others similar like tobaccy and dancing) is an issue of salvation and those who particpate are headed to hell in a hand basket. And they reject not only that theory, but the God also. That crowd shows little of the fruits of the Spirit in their lives and it doesn't matter how they dress. They are worried to much about appearance and to little about the condition of their heart and their growth as a child of God. They have mistaken rule following for maturity.
So, in order to combat this sort of idea, I don't play the pants game. I played it well enough as a teen, where the members of the youth group who just accepted that "standard" turned right around and allowed sexual immorality in their lives and the ones in authority over us ignored that in favor of outward appearance! In the end it lead to the breakup of the church and that church is still struggling.
Bloom where you are planted.
However, I have a friend who dresses only/mostly in dresses and has waist length hair and she doesn't look dowdy or unstylish. She, after many conversations with yours truly, sees the "rule" she was raised with as a sign of feminity and has choosen to stick with what *I* see as legalism. I can't fault her for that.
Bloom where you are planted.
Only you and your husband can decide what constitutes modesty for your household. If your church makes dresses only a sign of salvation, you'll have to decide if you want to continue attending there. If you can wear dresses to church as a sign of respect to the standards of the fellowship and wear pants elsewhere without recrimination (as I did for many years as a teen) then do so and don't worrry about the apparant contradiction.
If you can't, keep looking for a church that suits your lifestyle. (oh yeah, you can expect I'll be called out for this view, that's alright, I argue a lot here!)
btw, I am also a homeschooling mother of 4. My eldest is entering her second year at university, my godson is entering his junior year at public school, my own son who is the same age is doing his junior year in homeschool and my youngest daughter will be entering 8th grade also in homeschool. You'll find we have quite a few homeschoolers here and ladies from every walk of life and experience.
Welcome to the BB!
That's your opinion, nothing within the problem she had supported the context or need for it, and she said lesson learned.
thanks for any support/advice/encouragement you can offer.
If you want to know God's will for you and your daughters in this matter, even if it isn't God's will for another woman, you're directed by the Scriptures to go to your husband. It doesn't matter whether or not he is sure. Your going to him will prompt him to study it out.
1 Timothy 2:9-10 mentions women adorning themselves in "modest apparel."
Christians everywhere use these two words from this ONE verse taken out of context to mean that they can formulate the EXACT specifications of how long a dress must be, how low a neckline must stop at, how long a sleeve must be, how loose trousers must be, and what kind of undergarments one must wear.
All of the above makes me CRAZY!
1 Timothy 2:9-10 is talking about nothing of the sort. In fact, it is talking more about behavior, attitude, and spiritual mindsets than it is about actual garments.
How do I know?
Go back to the beginning of 1 Timothy 2. We don't have any other choice. We MUST read about "modest apparel" in the context that Paul was intending. Anything else is dead wrong.
Beginning in verse 1, Paul says that we are to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and to give thanks for everybody including those in authority over us. If we do this, then we all can lead quiet and peaceful lives. This pleases God our Savior very much Paul says and he says that God wants everyone to be saved and to know the truth. Then Paul proceeds to tell the truth about Jesus.
OK, so far, Paul is talking about spiritual matters.
"THEREFORE......"
Now he says with that in mind, the men should be lifting holy hands and praying with NO arguments and NO anger amongst them.
OK, still spiritual matters - a proper spiritual mindset and attitude.
"IN LIKE MANNER ALSO........"
Hmmmm.....
"In like manner also....."
"In LIKE manner also....."
Like whom? The men. Like what? Holy and spiritually minded.
Like How? By "wearing" holy things.
The men are to lift holy hands and focus on leading the worship service. The women are wear "holy apparel" focus on maintaining an atmosphere of worship.
The greek word for apparel is a "garment". What are those holy garments that women are to "wear"?
"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."
- shamefacedness (reverence for others)
- sobriety (self-control)
- professing godliness
- good works
Paul did notsay for them to adorn themselves with garments of loose-fitting trousers or dresses, mid-sleeved jackets, and close-toed shoes.
He said to adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety and good works.
Thayer's lexicon says that kosmios means "a well-ordered life".
When Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16 that bishops must be blameless and live a life of "good behaviour"..... "behaviour" in the King James Bible means the same thing - kosmios.
Paul isn't talking about a woman's bra strap showing in church or a ban on her wearing open-toed shoes while singing in the choir. He isn't talking about pants vs. dresses. He isn't talking about the length of a shirt sleeve or long denim skirts or undergarments or bathing suits.
He is talking about "in the like manner" of the men.
The women are to be spiritually minded.
They are to be "clothed" in holiness - giving the appearance of holiness in their mannerisms, attitude, and much more. And yes, that could include attire. BUT the attire that Paul is opposed to is ostentatiousness (sp?) for wealth's sake, not nudity's sake. He is opposed to fancy attire (to show off with) and much gold and pearls and costly and attention drawing hair. That's what Paul is speaking out against. Does that mean that we can't wear jewelry or make-up or wear a nice outfit? No. It means to think about presenting a holy and Christ-like demeanor as opposed to presenting a air of "look at me - I'm wealthy and I dress to put you in your place."
"Clothed" in shamefacedness (reverence), sobriety (self-control), professing godliness, and doing good works. If a woman is clothing herself in these things, her literal clothing will take care of itself. If she is dressing in holiness, she will not purposefully show parts of her body that she should not.
But, if she is obsessed with her outer apparel and ignores Paul's teaching of the spiritual apparel, she can dress in a bikini on the beach or gunny sack down to her toes on the front pew and go straight to hell and take her family with her.
I've SEEN women who wear dresses only who are so ostentatious about it and that I don't see how they have any spiritual marrow in their bones.
I do believe that women AND men should dress in order to be respectful of God, themselves, and others.
But 1 Timothy 2:9-10 isn't a foundation for this topic of women's clothing styles.
It's about women, in like manner of the men having a holiness directive in order to achieve 1 Timothy 2:1-8, having a holiness directive of their own.
A kosmios directive. Just like the kosmos directive in 1 Peter 3:1-4.
Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment (kosmos), such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet* spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.
*quiet meaning tranquil and living peacably, not keeping one's mouth shut
This verse isn't talking about literal garments at all.
I will direct this to starter of the thread.
Well, I was wrong. If you want a wedge further driven between you and your husband, you've come to the right place.
Background: I am a homeschool mom of 5 - 4 girls and 1 boy. My husband and I were saved 13 years ago in a huge non-denomonational Christian church. We left there after attending several years. This began our journey with baptist churches. The first one we stayed at for 3 yrs only to learn they were very grounded in Calvinism. After studying about that we decided that we couldn't support that. So since then we have been visiting various independent baptist churches.
One church in particular we stayed at for 4 mos. This was my first exposure to "women only wearing skirts and dresses." It was a bit much at first but I began to wear them and required my girls to as well. Overall it was good as it helped me to address the modesty issue which I had had issues with. I was struggling with how some of my Christian friends and my girls' friends were dressing. So this helped me to reinforce this issue with my kids. But I started wearing them out of respect for the people in this church, not out of personal conviction.
My issue is that I don't have anything against wearing skirts/dresses; I like to wear them. But does this mean I can't ever wear pants?
I have been reading/researching this topic for a while now. I have read all kinds of things on both ends of the spectrum. I guess the main scripture referenced is Deut. 22:7. But after looking at that and studying it along with others in the old testament, I am not convinced.
There are 2 things that I am going over in my mind:
1) 1 Tim 2:9 (?) speaks of women wearing "modest apparel." The greek word for apparel is katastole, which defined means a lowering, letting down
a garment let down, dress, attire. So some say, "see that means you need to wear a dress or skirt." But others have said that pants are also "let down." etc. But for me, modesty is the issue here. One should not wear short shorts, halter tops etc. We need to cover our bodies and make sure that our clothes are not tight and revealing. But maybe I'm wrong?? I guess it is because God has not said, "thou shalt only wear a robe" or "thou shalt only wear a dress." I do not want to get into legalism with this. The other issue with this is with my older 2 girls, 13 and 15. They were not raised to only wear skirts/dresses. They are willing to do it for church and other gatherings, but to HAVE to wear them all of the time is where the struggle comes in. It creates bitterness and anger in my home.
2) Women only wore dresses/skirts until 50 yrs ago. So this tells me that it is definitely a cultural thing...BUT it is the culture in which I live!! I mean it is not the norm to only wear a skirt or dress. My girls have said to me, "mom we feel like outcasts!"
So I guess I am leaning more towards requiring them for church and other gatherings but still allowing pants/capris and modest shorts as long as they are not too tight and body parts are not exposed. I don't know how else to handle it....
thanks for any support/advice/encouragement you can offer.