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New Worship

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Aaron, Dec 1, 2001.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    And now, the answer to my first question:

    Drumroll, please! (No, wait! Drums are evil! :D )

    St. Augustin's commentary on Psalm 150 represents the consensus of the church through the ages on the meaning of the psalm. You will find that it bears no resemblance to modern applications. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Praise the Lord in His saints," that is, in those whom He hath glorified: "praise Him in the firmament of His power" (ver. 1).

    "Praise Him in His deeds of strength;" or, as others have explained it, "in His deeds of power: praise Him according to the multitude of His greatness" (ver. 2). All these His saints are; as the Apostle saith, "But we may be the righteousness of God in Him." If then they be the righteousness of God, which He hath wrought in them, why are they not also the strength of Christ which He hath wrought in them, that they should rise again from the dead? For in Christ’s resurrection, "strength" is especially set forth to us, for in His Passion was weakness, as the Apostle saith. And well doth it say, "the firmament of His power." For it is the "firmament of His power" that He "dieth no more, death hath no more dominion over Him." Why should not they also be called "the works of" God’s "strength," which He hath done in them: yea rather, they themselves are the works of His strength; just as it is said, "We are the righteousness of God in Him." For what more powerful than that He should reign for ever, with all His enemies put under His feet? Why should not they also be "the multitude of His greatness"? not that whereby He is great, but whereby He hath made them great, many as they are, that is, thousands of thousands. Just as righteousness too is understood in two ways, that whereby He is righteous, and that which He worketh in us, so as to make us His righteousness. These same saints are signified by all the musical instruments in succession, to praise God in. For what the Psalmist began 1481 with, saying, "Praise the Lord in His saints," that he carrieth out, signifying in various ways these same saints of His.

    "Praise Him in the sound of the trumpet" (ver. 3): on account of the surpassing clearness of note of their praise. "Praise Him in the psaltery and harp." The psaltery praiseth God from things above, the harp praiseth God from things below; I mean, from things in heaven, and things in earth, as He who made heaven and earth. We have already in another Psalm, explained that the psaltery hath that board, whereon the series of strings rests that it may give a better sound, above, whereas the harp has it below.

    "Praise Him in the timbrel and choir" (ver. 4). The "timbrel" praiseth God when the flesh is now changed, so that there is in it no weakness of earthly corruption. For the timbrel is made of leather dried and strengthened. The "choir" praiseth God when society made peaceful praiseth Him. "Praise Him on the strings and organ." Both psaltery and harp, which have been mentioned above, have strings. But "organ" is a general name for all instruments of music, although usage has now obtained that those are specially called organ which are inflated with bellows: but I do not think that this kind is meant here. For since organ is a Greek word, applied generally, as I have said, to all musical instruments, this instrument, to which bellows are applied, is called by the Greeks by another name: but it being called organ is rather a Latin and conversational usage. When then he saith, "on the strings and organ," he seemeth to me to have intended to signify some instrument which hath strings. For it is not psalteries and harps only that have strings: but, because in the psaltery, and harp, on account of the sound from things below and things above, somewhat has been found which can be understood after this distinction, he hath suggested to us to seek some other meaning in the strings themselves: for they too are flesh, but flesh now set free from corruption. And to those, it may be, he added the organ, to signify that they sound not each separately, but sound together in most harmonious diversity, just as they are arranged in a musical instrument. For even then the saints of God will have their differences, accordant, not discordant, that is, agreeing, not disagreeing, just as sweetest harmony arises from sounds differing indeed, but not opposed to one another.

    "Praise Him on the well-sounding cymbals, praise Him on cymbals of jubilation" (ver. 5). Cymbals touch one another in order to sound, and 1482 therefore are by some compared to our lips. But I think it better to understand that God is in a manner praised on the cymbal, when each is honored by his neighbor, not by himself, and then honoring one another, they give praise to God. But lest any should under stand such cymbals as sound without life, therefore I think he added, "on cymbals of jubilation." For "jubilation" that is, unspeakable praise, proceedeth not, save from life. Nor do I think that I should pass over what musicians say, that there are three kinds of sounds, by voice, by breath, by striking: by voice, uttered by throat and windpipe, when man singeth without any instrument; by breath, as by pipe, or anything of that sort: by striking, as by harp, or anything of that kind. None then of these kinds is omitted here: for there is voice in the choir, breath in the trumpet, striking in the harp, representing mind, spirit, body, but by similitudes, not in the proper sense of the words. When then he proposed, "Praise God in His saints," to whom said he this, save to themselves? And in whom are they to praise God, save in themselves? For ye, saith he, are "His saints;" ye are "His strength," but that which He wrought in you; ye are "His mighty works, an d the multitude of His greatness," which He hath wrought and set forth in you. Ye are "trumpet, psaltery, harp, timbrel, choir, strings, and organ, cymbals of jubilation sounding well," because sounding in harmony. All these are ye: let nought that is vile, nought that is transitory, nought that is ludicrous, be here thought of.

    And since to savor of the flesh is death, "let every spirit praise the Lord" (ver. 6).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
    #21 Aaron, Dec 28, 2001
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    You've posted those allegories before, and it is not enough proof to say that the Bible is very restrictive in musical style (at least to the extent the CCM critics carry it). They look more like retrospective intepretations based on the contemporary philosophy of Augustine's time.
     
    #22 Eric B, Dec 30, 2001
  3. Brett Valentine

    Brett Valentine Member

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    I'm sorry, I find that just a bit too essoteric. It takes a rather straightforward and beautiful Psalm and turns it into what appears to be heavily contrived allegory; one without any key or reference to what it is supposed to signify. That interpretation seems more fitting of a chapter in Revelation than a Psalm.

    To be sure, we can look at the original language and different styles of writing for that time period to be sure of the meaning. Such twists and turns don't seem to fit the period the Psalm was written.

    Brett
     
    #23 Brett Valentine, Jan 2, 2002
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Brett,

    No one says they didn't beat cymbals and play instruments. Just like no one says they didn't kill animals in the worship of Jehovah.

    The point is, the church did not apply it literally, the symbolic forms and methods of OT worship being replaced with the true ones of the NT.
     
    #24 Aaron, Jan 2, 2002
  5. Brett Valentine

    Brett Valentine Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    Brett,

    No one says they didn't beat cymbals and play instruments. Just like no one says they didn't kill animals in the worship of Jehovah.

    The point is, the church did not apply it literally, the symbolic forms and methods of OT worship being replaced with the true ones of the NT.    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Okay, but here's the problem. Where is the NT verse that calls for that change in instruments in worship? I've always seen that (. . .and not just me) as part of what transferred into the NT (in light of Paul's order to speak in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs).

    For example, in Psalm 51:11, we understand
    that where Holy Spirit came to OT people and rested on them for specific purposes, He dwells within NT believers. We have clear, well definied Scriptural background for this change and don't say/pray these words with David's conviction or fear, or we should not. I don't find this concerning the use of instruments.

    Brett
     
    #25 Brett Valentine, Jan 2, 2002
  6. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Okay, but here's the problem. Where is the NT verse that calls for that change in instruments in worship? I've always seen that (. . .and not just me) as part of what transferred into the NT (in light of Paul's order to speak in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Brett, Aaron relies completely on post-apostolic authorities to substantiate the change in worship. We argued on and on about tlis last summer, but while the New Testament urged liberty, meaning the Jews could still worship somewhat like they were used to, and the Greeks likewise, (just as long as any legalistic/sacrificial or pagan/immoral elements from their "old lives" are rooted out). But after the Church became more and more gentile, the Jewish practice was supplanted by gentile beliefs, including platonic mistrust of anything Jewish or lively, so the idea that worship and music must be somber began to be taught, and read into various scriptures about "denying the flesh", etc. Then those allegories developed to further justify that.
     
    #26 Eric B, Jan 3, 2002
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Reply forthcoming. It's late and I work long days toward the end of the week.
     
    #27 Aaron, Jan 3, 2002
  8. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    I too have discussed this at length with Aaron.

    There is a clear, unmistakeable transition in the NT, from Animal sacrifices and ritual worship to worship of the true Lamb of God.

    Nowhere is there a refutation of the type of music used by the Jews, or the instruments or styles that they worshipped with. There is no syllogism there at all. Jesus Christ was the True Lamb, and Paul had to renounce those who would have NT Christians follow the Law in addition to their salvation by faith as legalists. But never is there any similar renounciation of the style of worship of the Jews. That is something that Aaron has decided must have been tied to the animal sacrifices and must also have been renounced by the early church. There is no Biblical basis for such a proposition. Instrumental music, lively or otherwise, cannot be "rejected" using Biblical support. Only by the man-centered arguments which caused Handel's Messiah to be questioned can such a stretch be made. "The Church" created certain guidelines for music, and straying from them has become labelled liberal, sacreligious, or worldly!
     
    #28 superdave, Jan 4, 2002
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Again, reply forthcoming, but you have forgotten the force of my argument. You cannot use the Psalms to justify instrumental music in Christian worship any more than you can use them to justify the burning of incense. Both instrumental music and the burning of incense were brought into Christian worship by Romanism. That is an indubitable historical fact.

    And many places in Acts describe the worship activities of the early church, and nowhere is music and dancing listed. Yet music or dancing is almost always mentioned in descriptions of Jewish observations.

    My point is, and always has been, that the promoters of CCM have absolutely no Scripture on their side. They only can make appeals to wanton permissivism and "my rights" or "my preferences," all very egocentric attitudes and quite contrary to the chief character quality God requires of His children.

    It's late, so I'll reply to the above posts later.

    [ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
    #29 Aaron, Jan 4, 2002
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Man, Aaron, you're on thin ice here. And to mix metaphors, you're sawing off a limb behind you!! :rolleyes:

    Roman Catholics didn't bring OT traditions and practices into the church; Jewish CHRISTIANS brought them in and were willingly accepted.

    Jesus brought many word-pictures from the OT into our assembly. We all are a royal priesthood; what does that entail? OT converts into NT - we are priests, we pray, we give, we minister.

    Buildings, music, even some ritual were all brought in. Think SuperDave et al have a valid point here. Will look forward to your thinking, but you're gonna have to work hard to convince me.

    (And I'm usually on your side, bro!)
     
    #30 Dr. Bob, Jan 5, 2002
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Dr. Bob,

    I'm at work at the moment and don't have a lot of time. I'll have to go back and find my evidence from ancient authorities. So again, reply forthcoming.

    Anyway. Someone needs to come up with an explanation of why the Holy Spirit was careful to mention musical instruments in descriptions of Jewish worship and is silent about it when describing Christian worship.

    Get back to you later.
     
    #31 Aaron, Jan 5, 2002
  12. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Because the Old Testament was very focused and more detailed on worship and music, and and in the New Testament, the focus shifted to the Gospel message of salvation and the growth and health of the Church. This is why the NT seems to place more emphasis on teaching than on music (telling us to sing, but not going into any details), but that doesn't mean that instruments weren't there anymore than it means that music was less important.
     
    #32 Eric B, Jan 5, 2002
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Dr. Bob,
    I'll start a new thread about Catholics and Jewish forms of worship.

    Superdave,
    With your ideas of "appropriateness" in regard to music you leave the Scriptures entirely and make us the standard of right and wrong in Christian worship.

    Eric,
    You argue that silence is liberty and you fabricate intricate designs of cause and effect relationships which may seem plausible, but lack credibility and contradict the consensus of modern and ancient historical sholarship.

    But I have only seen you do this in regard to music. What about infant baptism? The only arguments Baptists have against it is silence (for nowhere is it forbidden) and appeals to authorities on the general practice of the early church. But we know that the Jews circumcised their children (thereby initiating them into the household of faith) at eight days old.

    There you have the Jewish practice under the law, the silence of the NT, and the consensus of historical scholarship. All of which are my arguments against CCM.
     
    #33 Aaron, Jan 5, 2002
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I've never heard of an "argument from silence" regarding this issue. I thought the Baptists' argument against infant baptism was that baptism is for "believers" ["age of accountability"]. The scriptures may not explicitly say this, but that carries much weight as a biblical principle than "instruments were allowed only for the 'infantile' Jews"
     
    #34 Eric B, Jan 7, 2002
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Eric - An "argument from silence" is the weakest form of rebuttal, usually when there is nothing else available!

    Like my Lutheran friends saying "The Bible doesn't say we SHOULDN'T baptize babies, so I think God wants us to."

    For THAT kind of logic, there is no rebuttal.

    The BIBLE tells us to use instruments and sing heartily, joyfully to the Lord. I'm all for doing what the Bible says!
     
    #35 Dr. Bob, Jan 8, 2002
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    The BIBLE tells us to use instruments and sing heartily, joyfully to the Lord. I'm all for doing what the Bible says!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Everything has its proper place.

    Here is an interesting comparison about the old hymns of the faith compared to what goes on today in charismatic circles:

    Time for a rewrite of the old hymns. In this day and age of Third Wave revival movements and Word-Faith dominion, the old hymns just aren't cutting it anymore. Not only are they old fashioned musically, but the lyrics are, for the most part, particularly depressing. They talk of sin, death, repentance, the cross, the blood of Jesus and a whole host of other disgusting subjects. There are also too many lyrics in them, frankly, which takes away from the "worship" atmosphere. Repetitiveness is what we need, not dead doctrinal concepts. The old hymns are just too biblical. Give us a beat to move our feet, not concepts to move our hearts and minds!

    Here is a list of some hymns that could be "upgraded" to meet the criteria of the Third Wave, Word-Faith, Latter Rain, Manifest Sons Of God, New Apostolic Reformation. This list is by no means complete. If you don't recognize the hymns mentioned perhaps it would be worth your time to go back and read them, then compare what they say to the new doctrines.

    Traditional Hymn Lyrics Upgraded "Third Wave" CCM Rock Lyrics
    Where He Leads Me I Will Follow. Where We Lead Him, He Must Follow.
    Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee. Joyful, Joyful We Fall Down Laughing.
    How Great Thou Art. How Great Hinn Is.
    Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus Stand Up, Stand Up For Benny.
    Come Let Us Worship And Bow Down. Come Let Us Raise Our Hands And Ascend.
    Seek Ye First. Declare Ye First.
    This Is My Father's World. This Is The Church's World.
    There's A Wideness In God's Mercy. There's A Wildness In God's People.
    Thou Art Worthy. We Are Worthy.
    All Hail The Power Of Jesus' Name. All Hail The Power Of The Holy Spirit.
    O Could I Speak The Matchless Word. O I Can Speak The Matchless Word.
    Take The Name Of Jesus With You. Take The Transferable Anointing With You.
    Come Holy Spirit, Come Holy Spirit.
    Joy To The World. Joy To The Churches.
    Angels We Have Heard On High. Angels We Have Seen On High.
    Go, Tell It On The Mountain. Go, Blow It (Shofar) On The Mountain.
    I Wonder As I Wander. I Wander As I Wonder.
    Good Christian Men, Rejoice. Good Christian Men, Bark.
    The Unveiled Christ. The Corporate Christ.
    Tell Me The Story Of Jesus. Tell Me Any Good Story.
    Lead Me To Calvary. Lead Me To Power.
    Were You There (At Calvary). Were You There (At Brownsville).
    In The Cross Of Christ I Glory. In The Transferable Anointing I Glory.
    When I Survey The Wonrdous Cross. When I Survey The Wondrous Signs.
    There Is Power In The Blood. There Is Power In My Touch.
    Rejoice, The Lord Is King. Rejoice, The Church Is King.
    Crown Him With Many Crowns. Crown Us With Many Crowns.
    We Shall Behold Him. He Shall Behold Us.
    While We Are Waiting, Come. While We Are Reigning, Come.
    Breathe On Me (Holy Spirit). Breathe On Me (Benny Hinn).
    Heavenly Spirit, Gentle Spirit. Heavenly Spirit, "No Gentleman" Spirit.
    Breathe On Me, Breath Of God. Breathe On Me, Breath Of Benny.
    Praise Ye The Triune God. Praise Ye Jesus Only.
    Holy, Holy, Holy Holy
    O Word Of God Incarnate. O Manifest Manchild Company Incarnate.
    Wonderful Words Of LIfe. Wonderful Words Of Power.
    Standing On The Promises. Rolling In The Premises.
    Holy Bible, Book Divine. Holy Bible, But Give Me A Sign.
    How Firm A Foundation. How New A Foundation.
    The Church's One Foundation. The Church's New Foundation.
    They'll Know We Are Christians By Our Love. They'll Know We Are Christians By Our Anointing.
    There Shall Be Showers Of Blessing. There Shall Be Showers Of Gold Dust, Feathers, etc.
    O Breath Of Life. O Breath Of Benny.
    Revive Us Again. Revive Us Again (For Real This Time!).
    I Love To Tell The Story. I Love To Tell My Stories.
    Rescue The Perishing. Rescue The Unanointed.
    Share His Love. Share The Imparation.
    People Need The Lord. People Need The Anointing.
    Lord, Thy Church On Earth Is Seeking. Lord, Thy Church On Earth Is Declaring.
    Pass It On (God's Love). Pass It Forward (The Money).
    Let Your Heart Be Broken. Let Your Mind Be Broken.
    According To Thy Gracious Word. According To Thy "Old, Dusty Tracks".
    Here, O My Lord, I See Thee Face To Face. There, O My Lord, I Saw Thee Face To Face.
    Have You Any Room For Jesus? Have You Any Room For New Doctrines?
    Room At The Cross For You. Room At The Front For You.
    Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus. Turn Your Eyes Upon Cindy Jacobs.
    At Calvary. At Toronto.
    Be Still, My Soul. Be Drunk, My Soul.
    Leaning On The Everlasting Arms. Leaning On The Pew Arms (Because I'm Drunk In The Spirit).
    Trusting Jesus. Trusting Paul Crouch.
    I Surrender All. I Surrender All My Money.
    I Have Decided To Follow Jesus. I Have Decided To Follow Creflo Dollar.
    More About Jesus. More About Transformation.
    My Hope Is In The Lord. My Hope Is In The Church.
    My Faith Looks Up To Thee. My Faith Looks Into Me.
    I Heard The Voice Of Jesus Say (Through His Word). I Heard The Voice Of Jesus Say (Through The Air).
    No One Understands Like Jesus. No One Understands Like Richard Roberts.
    Tell Me The Old, Old Story. Tell Me The New, New Story.
    I Need Thee Every Hour. I Need The Impartation Every Hour.
    I Must Tell Jesus (All My Trials). I Must Tell Jesus (What To Do).
    Sweet Hour Of Prayer. Sweet Hour Of Declare.
    Take Time To Be Holy. Take Time To Be Holier Than Thou.
    Give Me Jesus. Give Me Power.
    Something For Thee. Something For Me.
    I Will Serve Thee. He Will Serve Us.
    Make Me A Blessing. Make Me A Toronto Blessing.
    Come All Christians, Be Committed (To The Service Of The Lord). Come All Christians, Be Committed (To Taking Dominion Of The Earth).
    The Battle Is The Lord's. The Battle Is The Church's.
    We Will Stand. We Will Fall Down Backwards.
    Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus. Fall Down, Fall Down For Jesus.
    The Battle Belongs To The Lord. The Battle Belongs To The Saints.
    Faith Is The Victory. The Force Of Faith Is The Victory.
    He Keeps Me Singing. He Keeps Me Drunk.
    Like A River Glorious (Is God's Perfect Peace). Like A River Glorious (Is The Third Wave Revival Movement).
    Peace Like A River. "Pandemonium" Like A "River".
    Jesus, I Am Resting, Resting. Jesus, I Am Falling, Falling.
    He Touched Me (Jesus). He Touched Me (Benny Hinn).
    I'd Rather Have Jesus. I'd Rather Have The Impartation.
    It Took A Miracle (To Put The Stars In Place). It Took A Miracle Crusade To Get People To Attend.
    All That Thrills My Soul (Is Jesus), All That Thrills My Soul (Is Signs And Wonders).
    No One Ever Cared For Me Like Jesus. No One Ever Cared For Me Like Steve Hill.
    Satisfied. Never Quite Satisfied
    Happy The Home When God Is There. Happy The Home When TBN Is There.
    As For Me And My House (We Will Serve The Lord). As For Me And My House (We Will Watch TBN).
    O That Will Be Glory For Me (When By His Grace I Shall Look On His Face). O That Will Be Glory For Me (When By Joel's Army We Shall Dominate The Earth).
    Soon And Very Soon (We Are Going To See The King). Soon And Very Soon (We Are Going To Be The King).
    We Gather Together (To Ask The Lord's Blessing). We Gather Together (To Get The Toronto Blessing).
    For Health And Strength (And Daily Food We Praise Thy Name, O Lord). For Health And Strength (And Daily Wealth We Pray The Prayer Of Jabez, O Lord).
    If My People's Hearts Are Humbled. If My People Ascend To The Highest Heaven.
    The Wise May Bring Their Learning (To Offer To The King). The Wise Should Leave Their Learning (At the Door).
    Come Let Us Reason (Together). Come Let Us Party (Together).
    Spirit Divine, Hear Our Prayer. Spirit Divine, Answer Our Summons.
    Let The Words Of My Mouth (Be Acceptable In Thy Sight). Let The Words Of Mouth (Create Reality).
    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/hymns.html
    DHK

    [ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
    #36 DHK, Jan 8, 2002
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    We have a new crowd in the music forum. Thought I'd bring some things back to the top.
     
    #37 Aaron, Jun 30, 2002
  18. Gayla

    Gayla New Member

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    Promoters of modern worship often appeal to these verses to justify the use of full instrumental, heavily rhythmic music in
    Christian worship.

    My question is:

    What did the church do with this Psalm before rock 'n' roll was well accepted in American culture. Was this psalm merely ignored for nearly 2 millennia, or have we been unable to obey this admonition until now?    </font>[/QUOTE]Worship is humbling yourself before God, not asking for anything, but thanking Him for His, love, mercy etc. cymbals and such don't fit.
    Praise is gettingt excited about it.
    Praise and Worship are two different things.

    [ July 01, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Gayla ]
     
    #38 Gayla, Jul 1, 2002
  19. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Aaron said:

    St. Augustin's commentary on Psalm 150 represents the consensus of the church through the ages on the meaning of the psalm.

    More to the point, Aaron, can you provide a justification for your departure from grammatical-historical interpretation in favour of allegory? Apart from "Because Augustine agrees with me," that is.

    Why should I not take the commands of Psalm 150 at face value?

    [ July 02, 2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]
     
    #39 Ransom, Jul 2, 2002
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I said that Augustine's commentary was representative of the consensus of the early church.

    That's all. Certainly the Jews worshipped with these things, but the church in the early centuries shunned them along with the other shadows of the Law.

    The CCM crowd sees them as commandments to the NT church, if it was so obvious that God wanted us to praise him with lifeless machines (for an instrument is a machine), then we should have seen it in the early church--but we don't.

    That is what my question is about.

    What, is there no spiritual significance to the shadows and types of the Old Testament? Indeed there is, for all Scripture is inspired and profitable.
     
    #40 Aaron, Jul 2, 2002
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