New Year’s, The Second Coming, The Thessalonians, & Preterism

[HankD]

Thanks again for making my case Hank. In all these verses you didn’t find one single verse that said Christ would come back a long time in the future, another generation, or anything else that would suggest He would be a long time in coming back.

That is the way it should be because no one can know the day or the hour.

"Soon/quickly" - the preterist pivotal case, yet preterism will not allow an acceptable and alternative view of "soon/quickly" as a viable hermeneutical tool as they (preterists) do with a myriad of other words, phrases and passages.

And this is why preterism must allegorize anything that implies a literal, visible and bodily return of Christ because such a return was not seen in AD70.

So the best you can scrape up is eyeballs and clouds and they have been proven to be taken out of the context of the OT scripture they were based on and you get upset about futurism be compared to cartoons.

These "eyeballs" (a term I did not use) and clouds, I did not "scrape up" but are Scripture.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

The scripture makes use of "every eye" to let the reader know that is exactly how He will be seen, with the eyes. The context of Revelation 1 proves that it is Jesus Christ who will return and not a substitue such as Titus, a Roman general and that He will be visibly seen with eyes, the same way He was seen when He left from the Mount of Olives:

Revelation 1

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

The details of the manner of His return was explained in Acts 1:9-11 (context included).

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

In verse 9 we are told that He was taken up out of their sight and received into a cloud.
In verse 10 they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up.
In verse 11 they are still gazing up into heaven.
In verse 11 we are also told that this same Jesus will return in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Words such as Sight, looked, gazing prove that this was a visible happening.

He (Jesus Christ) was visibly seen going into heaven.
His ascension was visible and bodily, He passed though the air,
He will return in like manner.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

The fulfillment has yet to be seen.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

I believe all that can be said pertaining to the line of reasoning of this thread has been said but if you believe otherwise and/or want to the continue the debate, OK.

Otherwise if there is no provocation (I'll give you the last word), I am content to let the debate stand as is and let the readers consider the possibility of preterism in the light of the debate, scripture presented and hermeneutic exercised.

Thanks Logos1

HankD

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks again for making my case Hank. In all these verses you didn’t find one single verse that said Christ would come back a long time in the future, another generation, or anything else that would suggest He would be a long time in coming back.

You could just give it up and admit there is no support for your position in the bible. You point out the desperation of futurism and how it relies on redefining and twisting verses that have nothing to do with a long time in returning to make your case.

Every time you cut and paste this it points out again there is no biblical support for a return other than the first generation, shortly, soon, quickly, etc. All verses on the matter say shortly, soon, quickly, etc. All the apostle’s statements in their epistles say an event such as crushing Satan would be done shortly.

So the best you can scrape up is eyeballs and clouds and they have been proven to be taken out of the context of the OT scripture they were based on and you get upset about futurism be compared to cartoons.

Hank, when I realized how bankrupt futurism is and how cartoonish the dispensational bible teachers are with their raptures, battles of Armageddon, and antichrists ruling the world I was man enough to admit I was wrong—maybe you should give some thought to the matter.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Please enlighten me on this....

We are now in the reign/rule of Christ upon this earth...

We have had wars ablolished, all nations believe in 1 true God, peace established everywhere, no more famines, disease sickness?

Did the Bible lie every time that it mentioned all of that?

Did Isaiah WRONGLY see the glorious future Kingdom to be established on earth by Jesus?

Did Both paul and John "miss" the truth that you have found?

IN THAT DAY the prophets all forsaw the coming reign of the messiah upon the earth, they saw it it where ALL peoples would know that God of Isreal only true God, as that would be ONLY God worshipped upon all earth at that time...

Did we all miss THAT TIME?

 

[Logos1]

If we literalize all scripture then Rev. 16:20 destroys the Mount of Olives

Hank, there is never any intended provocation in a negative sense of the word on my part. I don’t take any thing that goes on in forums personal and would leave if I ever found it was upsetting to me. If I didn’t feel good about time spent in this effort I would spend my time else where. I do have a little fun with futurism—that at least allows us to get something positive out of it. I think after 2,000 years of eschatological failure it has to be enjoyed any way you can find to enjoy it. I certainly consider everybody here a brother in Christ even though I know they don’t view me that way, but I don’t let that bother me. I know when we meet on the other side we will all be Preterists I just got there before some others did. No biggie. The inherit scripture twisting of futurism is very entertaining and I enjoy those misguided prophecy teachers on TV and radio and tales of raptures, Armageddon, earthly kingdoms, etc.

As far as how to view soon/quickly your argument is not with me it is with Christ and the apostles—they didn’t leave any doubt as how to interpret it. They didn’t contradict the no one knows the day or hour statement simply by saying time and time and time again that it would be shortly, quickly, in the first generation. This is one of the many hollow points of futurism—If I said I was leaving for town and said I’ll be back shortly, but didn’t give an exact time would you say I contradicted the meaning of shortly. That is just what Christ did any attempt to say otherwise is clearly perverting the meaning of the language and Christ’s promise to us.

Allow me to point out another aspect of the hollow inner shell of futurism. That is the desire to literalize everything. To twist every verse into something literal. Nothing can be more devastating to futurism than the blindly, clinging to literalism. It blows up futurism all the time.

For example let’s look at the Zechariah passage you point to and claim Christ will come back and put his foot down literally on the mount of Olives. Revelation 16:20 says “Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared”. So if you take this literally then there are no mountains left (Mount of Olives is literally included in the statement NO Mountains Left) because they have all been destroyed so Christ can’t literally come back and put his foot down on something that is no longer there. Futurism contradicts itself like this all the time and makes the bible contradict itself all the time.

Futurist’s beloved Acts 1:11 passage contradicts Acts 1:9 when it says he disappeared into the clouds so he would have to come back invisible and how would every eyeball see him when he was invisible. Not to mention the hilarious notion that people on the opposite side of the world would see him. This alone should be enough to make one understand that Act 1:11 refers to discernment not eyeballs. Although Acts 1:11 actually refers to Christ coming into heaven not coming back into the earth’s atmosphere.

The futurist’s view of the Thessalonians passage turns Christians into nothing more than flying monkeys of Wizard of Oz fame. What one possible purpose would be achieved from Christians flying up into the atmosphere and floating around the clouds? The bible is about spiritual matters not atmospheric matters. There is no biblical record of Christ or the Apostles teaching about the atmosphere and how it fits into the plan of salvation. On the other hand if you rightly divide the meaning of “air” you realize it means we are gathered into Christ’s spiritual realm and dwell with him there. Christ taught about his atoning work of reconciling us back into God’s presence not reconciling us back into the clouds. Viewing this from a spiritual rather than a “literal atmosphere” perspective is the only way to make it honestly square with the bible.

Remember in Romans how Paul explained the superiority of living a spiritual life not a natural life. Both are physical, but spiritual is God’s way of living on earth. Again in Galatians Paul pointed out the difference between living according to the flesh or the spirit—both are physical lives lived on earth, but one is the view of Preterism and the allegorical view of some prophecies and the other is the view of futurism and waiting for prophecy to be fulfilled in a literal way.

Preterism goes way beyond mere prophecy and embraces the victory of Christ and allows us to claim that victory now and embrace being reconciled back into the presence of God. Futurism puts off the victory of Christ (you could say it let’s Satan steal Christ’s victory since futurists don’t acknowledge that victory ) forever waiting on His return before it can be claimed.

You brother can wait if you want, but I claim the victory of Christ now, enjoy it now, and can look forward to heaven upon death instead of being stuck in Sheol forever waiting for His return to be reconciled back into His presence.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[HankD]

Thanks Logos1.

Your brother in Christ
HankD

 

[lastday]

Dear Brother Hank,

I like your silent response in #24 today. I gave up on Logos1 months ago when he failed
my several attempts to obtain his explanation of how the martyrs in heaven could be told they must "wait a short time" before God will "avenge their blood on those dwelling on the earth"...that this "short time involved the death of all those who must still be killed" for their testimony on the earth.

Believers still being killed is the primary evidence that Christ has not yet "split the Mt. of Olives" and destroyed the wicked on the Day He becomes King of the entire earth. Logos1 is incorrect in claiming "NOT one mountain will be left". Every island will be moved
out of place; but not every mountain will be destroyed.

Not only is Logos1 incorrect in his interpretation of Scripture, even though he often shows a respect for its being without error, he denies that Christ gave explicit signs by
which believers will "know the end is near". We cannot know the "End is Near" as long
as believers are still being killed...until the required sign of the Two Witnessing showing
"God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority for exactly 1260 days before the mystery
of God is finished and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that God's wrath has come".

So silence is the only way to respond to such "twisting" of the Scripture that denies
"end of time saints will know when the End is Near". Matt.24:33.
Mel at www.lastday.net

 

[HankD]

Dear Brother Hank,

I like your silent response in #24 today. I gave up on Logos1 months ago when he failed
my several attempts to obtain his explanation of how the martyrs in heaven could be told they must "wait a short time" before God will "avenge their blood on those dwelling on the earth"...that this "short time involved the death of all those who must still be killed" for their testimony on the earth.

Believers still being killed is the primary evidence that Christ has not yet "split the Mt. of Olives" and destroyed the wicked on the Day He becomes King of the entire earth. Logos1 is incorrect in claiming "NOT one mountain will be left". Every island will be moved
out of place; but not every mountain will be destroyed.

Not only is Logos1 incorrect in his interpretation of Scripture, even though he often shows a respect for its being without error, he denies that Christ gave explicit signs by
which believers will "know the end is near". We cannot know the "End is Near" as long
as believers are still being killed...until the required sign of the Two Witnessing showing
"God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority for exactly 1260 days before the mystery
of God is finished and the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that God's wrath has come".

So silence is the only way to respond to such "twisting" of the Scripture that denies
"end of time saints will know when the End is Near". Matt.24:33.
Mel at www.lastday.net

Thanks Bro Mel, whether right or wrong to what degree, I believe Bro Logos1 is another sincere soul searching the scriptures for the truth.

HankD

 

[Logos1]

What happens when you base your view on prophecy on one verse

Thanks Hank, I’ve always thought the same thing about you.

Lastdays are you trying to say that you don’t worship my writings like Oldregular does?

I know how much you will enjoy getting your much anticipated answer. I know you will find it worth the wait.

Avenging their blood with those dwelling on earth was the events that happened to the Jews in 70 AD. What could be simpler or easier to understand than that. Those left to be killed were the saints dying between the writing of Revelation which was pre 70 AD and the events of 70 AD. Surely you were aware that Revelation was written before 70 AD and don’t believe heretical accounts of it being written post 70 AD.

I don’t believe you have a verse in the bible to twist out of context to argue that no Christians would be killed after this particular judgment takes place. If you do please show it to us. If not we will assume no such meaning was intended by John in his writings since he didn’t say no other Christians would ever be killed.

Judgment came many times in the bible. Judgment came against the Jews at various times in the Old Testament, against the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. People always died after those judgments. Why would you think this judgment precludes anyone being killed afterward? The completed number between Revelation’s writing and 70 AD judgment doesn’t say it is forever and always the completed number of martyrs just the completed number until the specific judgment spoken of here.

Lastdays it sounds like your view on eschatology is one verse wide and one verse deep and that gives you only one chance to get it right instead of the totality of verses written on the subject.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Avenging their blood with those dwelling on earth was the events that happened to the Jews in 70 AD. What could be simpler or easier to understand than that. Those left to be killed were the saints dying between the writing of Revelation which was pre 70 AD and the events of 70 AD.

So how was the blood of those martyrs killed by the Romans before AD 70 avenged? And who avenges the blood of all the countless millions of martyrs slain since AD 70 in the wonderful 'new heavens and new earth' which has been around since that time? Just wondering.

Surely you were aware that Revelation was written before 70 AD and don’t believe heretical accounts of it being written post 70 AD.

You are very easy with calling other people heretics. People in glass house and all that..... To those of us who espouse sensible eschatology, it makes not the slightest difference whether Revelation was written before or after AD 70, but the evidence for the later date is very powerful.

Steve

 

[Martin Marprelate]

[Bump!]
Logos 1 Seems to have gone all quiet.