BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The entire chapter of Romans 9??Handmaid
Rom. 9 definately points toward God calling some people and hardening others. This is what I was looking to find. BTW: could an Arminian please explain what they do with Rom. 9 and Acts 13:48.
I hope you don't mind comments on just most of 9 - instead of the entire chapter.
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9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”
Really good example of foreknowledge here - but a real Calvinist problem since God willed Sarah to have a child and was apparently ALSO willing Sarah to laugh at God over it at the time. Obviously Sarah did NOT of her own free will choose such a thing in the model of Calvinism - since she never had free will to begin with (according to Calvin). At each turn so far - Cavlinism is frustrated by the points highlighted.
Good example of God knowing the future. Although I am sure some Calvinists would point this out as God arbitrarily picking Jacob without any reference to the actual choices for obedience vs rebellion in the two men. However the text itself only deals with relationship between the two brothers - not good vs evil or love-vs-hate. The mother is told which Son will be dominant - which one will have the blessing.
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
Interesting quote of Malachi AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter).
Would have worked MUCH better for Calvinism if that quote had come from something said before the twins were born, as iif God has ALREADY decided ot hate Esau arbitrarily. But that is not the source of the quote. Paul appeals to the nature of the fact that God showed past-tense his actions toward the descendants of Esau who were in constant rebellion - and the descendants of Jacob.
Perfect Calvinist point here - the chapter should END here to preserve the Calvinist point and not wreck it. It appears that maybe God is claiming that it is not man's choice - but rather God's choice to NOT have Mercy on the many but just have mercy on the few that he knows to be saved - on the CHOSEN people ONLY. Limitted atonement in action IF we could have ended the point here and turned a blind eye to the full teaching of the chapter.
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Ooooops! Notice that this does not say "God DOES NOT have MERCY on vessels He knows to be destined for hell." Instead Paul argues that the case depends on God who HAS mercy (And not on JUST the FEW).
Having mercy on the LOST ALSO messes the whole limited atonement thing . Oh well let's try another chapter.
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
He DID SO? He Endured with much patientnce - SO that He could MAKE KNOWN the riches of His Glory??
Hold it. How does it convey the "riches of God's Glory" to the "vessels of mercy" - to show mercy and kindness and longsuffering upon those that God foreknows will ultimately reject Him?
This IS the Arminian argument that the JUSTICE of God is shown by His compassion, kindness and efforts to reach the lost - "I will Draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32. Paul is making the case that in the EFFORT God makes toward those that He KNOWS will not be saved by their own choice - God is REVEALING his Glory to the saints that ARE saved.
The saints are SEEING God be patient and caring EVEN of the Lost - and the text says that REVEALS to them - His Glory.
Limited atonement fails here - and so does the concept that God arbitrarily predestined them to be lost because the combination of longsuffering and effort for the lost would not "show the riches of Gods glory" IF it could be proven that God arbitrarily predestined their failure.
God is "Not willing that ANY should perish" and Paul declares that God is "Calling all men everywhere to REPENT" - but yet He still knows the end from the beginning and so - STILL chooses to endure with much patience those who will be destroyed.
(And that principle "of the God that never changes" remains true EVEN in the fires of Rev 14:10-11 where they are burned "IN our Presence". The Presence of Christ "AND His Holy Ones")
Oh no WORSE for the Calvinist because INSTEAD of selecting the saved just from the Soevereignly CHOSEN NATION - He is going to BOTH the CHOSEN (Holy Nation, Royal Priesthood) and the non-chosen GENTILES.
25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
26 “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”
29 And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”>>
More BAD news - He claims that He SHOWS mercy EVEN to the finally-lost FOR the benefit of the saved. He shows that LIMITTING His mercy JUST to the saved would not be as much benefit FOR THE SAVED as EXTENDING it to BOTH groups. Hmmmm what a devastating blow to Calvinism. We commend Paul - the inspired author of the book of Romans for showing details that reveal God showing His MERCY and KINDNESS to BOTH the chosen and the non-chosen. "For it is the KINDNESS of God that LEADS you to repentance" Rom 2:4.
{Wow - NOW God is really trouncing the entire sovereignly CHOSEN/ROYAL/HOLY nation by CONTRAST with the NOT-CHOSEN Gentiles. End of Calvinism.) How could that be?? IN the Model of Calvinism what is "supposed to happen" is the utter disregard for those "NOT Chosen" and "should have been" sole concern - and sovereignly directed success for the "Chosen", sovereignly elect and chosen at Sinai.30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
Notice the definition for "LAW of Righteousness" and how that is contrasted to the gentiles who DID "attain Righteousness". The term "LAW of Righteousnes" being pursued by the jews is a :Law pursued APART from FAITH and "as though it were by WORKS".
It is clearly introduced as - apart from Christ, apart from Faith, Stumbling over Christ rather than receiving Him - because Christ declares that all are sinners and all need a savior.
IN christ,
Bob
[ November 29, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]