News: a compromising president?

You and several others here are attempting to shift the premise of the argument. Nobody on this thread complained that Bush "met with" or "ate with" muslims. I do so occasionally myself. The point is what he SAID.

Jesus never condoned the sin or error of those with whom he associated. Bush is not following Jesus' example.

Maybe Bush could say:

Bible...is the one supreme source of revelation of the meaning of life, the nature of God and spiritual nature and needs of men. It is the only guide of life which really leads the spirit in the way of peace and salvation. America was born a Christina nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scripture". -President Woodrow Wilson

Or:

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world withour God and the Bible.

...The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country. -President George Washington

Or:

...the next half century will determine if we advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism. The thought of modern industry in the hands of Chriatian charity is a dream worth dreaming. Tehthought of industry in the hands of paganism is a nightmare beyond imagining. The choice between the two is upon us.

...great joy and glory that, in occupying an exalted position in thenation, I am able to preach the practical moralities of the Bible to my fellow countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and saviour of the world" -President Theodore Roosevelt

Or,

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religino of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the frest expression of the human mind" -President Thomas Jefferson

Or:

The highest glory of the American revolution was this: it connected in one indissoulble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. -President John Quincy Adams

 

I find it very interesting that you would quote Jefferson's views on Christianity favorably...

Those rags he is talking about are doctrines like the deity of Christ, miracles, the doctrines of heaven and hell, the need for salvation, and all supernatural elements of the Christian life.

Jefferson's "pure" Christianity was the moral code (somehow extracted from everything that Jefferson didn't like) imposed on Jefferson's deistic Enlightenment views.

If this is the kind of thing you want Bush to embrace?

(Note: This is not the only quote you used that was questionable in content and context, but it is certainly the most appalling.)

 

You are being extremely soft on him! He was no where near orthodox...

I think if you had a better understanding of Jefferson's views, you would understand my point. Jefferson is essentially saying that the deity of Christ (among other things) is a "rag" that interferes with the understanding of the true teachings of Jesus.

It is the opposite of the Christian faith.

As for shifting the argument, I personally don't care very much about Bush giving me religious guidance. My faith is not dictated by the White House nor does God judge our nation's spiritual condition by our President.

I am opposed to civil religion, but I don't think it is inappropriate for the President of the nation to recognize and respect the religious views of all the the citizens -- even minority groups that I strongly disagree with.

 

Is this a Baptist Board?

An excerpt from the Philadelphia Confession:

If one thinks Bush is not Christian enough as President, then they will be sorely disappointed. I will be greatly surprised if the nation EVER gets a President this outspoken not just in His Christian beliefs, but in his relationship with the Almighty God.

But, back to the confession. As far as I can tell, Bush is doing all that our Baptist heritege encourages.

Bush is President of all citizens of this nation, and as such should be respectful citizens of all faiths.

I thought Baptists were the crusaders for relious liberty. As such, we should be the least concerned for these kinds of PR events.

I hope those criticizing our President are also offering up prayers for him.

Charlie

 

Perhaps it would help to see the way some other people view Bush. The following is the complete text of a letter printed in Nature (a highly respected, peer-reviewed, science journal) of December 5, 2002, written by a Gordon G. Cash (no address given):

Sir --
I believe that the crisis facing embryo research in the United States is a great deal more serious than your news item "US biologists wary of move to view embryos as human beings" (Nature 420, 3-4; 2002) portrayed it. the Bush administration's clear intent is to establish a legal precedent for declaring embryos to be people from the moment of conception. If this effort succeeds, all research on embryos in the United States could cease.

Assurances that the changes are intended only to protect pregnant women are obvious falsehoods. If that were the case, the new remit would emphasize "pregnant women," not "pregnant women, embryos, and fetuses". These assurances have been made by the deputy assistant secretary of the Health and Human Services (HHS) department, Arthur Lawrence, reported in The Washington Post (30 October 2002, page A1), as well as by HHS spokesman Bill Hall, as reported in your News story. Any doubts about the political motivation of these changes should be settled by the Bush administration's stated intention, also reported in The Washington Post's article, to place in the new HHS committee Mildred Jefferson -- a founder and past president of the National Right to Life Committee.

Adherents of the US 'right to life' movement have made backdoor attempts at legislation before. A proposal to declare conception as the beginning of legal personhood by constitutional amendment has been floating around for many years. Even the amendment's supporters concede that it has no chance of ratification, however, so attempts proliferate to obtain by executive fiat that which is unobtainable by straightforward appeal to US citizens. Given the results of the 5 November elections, we can expect more such attempts in the near future.

The biomedical community and patients' advocacy groups should harbour no illusions about what is at stake. The goal of certain elements in US politics is to have balls of undifferentiated cells legally defined as people. From that beginning, the argument that a ball of cells cannot give informed consent, and therefore cannot be a test subject, is a short and inescapable step away.

Gordon G. Cash

So maybe, folks, Bush is choosing his priorities?

In case one wonders what it would be like if Bush or any other President were the 'kind of Christian' leader that some on this board think is right and proper, I would urge a look at other religious leaders who have ended up in powerful political positions:

the Pope
Ayatollah Khomeini (sp?)
John Calvin (think Geneva)
Bishop Tutu
Bloody Mary

I think you get the picture. Praise God that Bush is aware of the demands of politics on a world scale while at the same time able to choose his priorities here at home and still make the world aware of his personal faith.

Yes, I'm sure he will make mistakes. We do, too.

 

Thank-you, Helen. This was the point I was trying to make, but you have said it better.


He is making an impact, and he is doing it tactfully. I think it's something like, sly as a serpant, yet harmless as a dove.

 

Speaking of politics I thought you guys would like this

One time there was a young teenage girl that was about
to finish her first year of college. She considered
herself to be a very liberal Democrat and her father
was a rather staunch Republican. One day she was
challenging her father on his beliefs and his
opposition to social programs like welfare.

He stopped her and asked her how she was doing in school.
She answered that she had a 4.0 GPA but it was really
tough. She had to study all the time, never had time to
go out and party and often went sleepless because all of
the studying. She didn't have time for a boyfriend and
didn't really have many college friends because of all
her studying.

He then asked how her friend Mary, that was attending the
same college, was doing. She replied that she was barely
getting by. She had a 2.0 GPA, never studied. She was very
popular on campus and was at parties all the time. She
often wouldn't show up for classes because she was hung
over.

He then asked his daughter why she didn't go to the Dean's
office and ask why she couldn't take 1.0 off her 4.0 and
give it to her friend that only had a 2.0. That way they
would both have a 3.0 GPA. She fired back and said "that
wouldn't be fair, I worked really hard for mine and my
friend has done nothing".

After a moment of silence, she replied, "I guess I will
never vote Democrat again".

 

Helen, the topic of this post is what some of us perceive as a series of serious mistakes. It seems to me that casually brushing it off as "hey, we all make mistakes" skirts the issue.

By the way, I prefer a standard of right and wrong, as we are able to discern from biblical principles, as opposed to "let's see what others think".

So, What do you think of his comments about Islam?

PA Jim

 

Hi Jim,

No, I don't like his comments about Islam, but then no one is worried about me causing an international incident with my comments, either! When he took office, he swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. That is his job. It is the job we elected him to do. Part of that Constitution has to do with not only the freedom to worship, but the equality of people. The President is NOT the head of a theocracy. Our Constitution and early legal system may be based on Judeo-Christian ethics and principles, but it itself is neither Jewish nor Christian and never has been. Christianity was the presumed religion for some time, but never the established or official religion. And, as such, the President must preside over people of all faiths.

If he were to take political sides on a religious issue, the hue and cry you would see would dwarf anything seen so far, I'm sure.

I'm NOT brushing off mistakes. I'm saying that, first of all, he is going to make them. I am also saying I have no idea what I would do, faced with the problems he is facing. We need allies if we are going to defeat terrorism. Right now even England and Germany have a significant number of Muslims in them, as citizens, and so do we. We have an even more significant number of people who are anti-biblical Christianity. Bush cannot afford to split the nation apart over religion when there is a danger to all of us that is so great.

This is why the Bible instructs us to pray for our leaders, not constantly criticize them or hold them up to public ridicule.

I tried to show above (the page before, actually, I think) that Bush is choosing his priorities carefully, to do the most good. I believe you are the one who was putting post after post up regarding his lack of a stand on abortion. But look what he was doing much more quietly: something that would do a world of good more than simply battling on the abortion front. By declaring the 'product of conception' a human being from the start, he is not only making a giant path for the right-to-life folk, but is endeavoring to stop the killing of little babies for the purpose of medical research. Is there another way you can think of in which he could have successfully, or possibly successfully, taken on those two 'birds' with one stone?

But you and many others were sparing no expense in running him down whenever possible on the abortion issue.

God allowed this man to be put into this office. Our job as Christians in obedience to God's Word in the Bible is to pray for him and the others in public offices, not weaken their position with constant public criticism over chosen specific issues. This is not a Clinton who is blatently immoral. This is not a Hitler out to conquer the world. This is a President we elected to serve four, and possibly eight, years at the helm of our ship of state.

Besides, God is still in control.

Let's support our President and if we disagree with something, let's not just harp on it in private forums, but let's pursue public legal means to change things. We are one of the few countries in history to have this option open to us.

 

Much of what the federal government does is unconstitutional and Bush is pushing it further rather than reigning it in. Where does the Constitution say that a president is required to render praise to Mohammed and/or the Muslim god Allah? I can't find it.

So, will you be part of the "hue and cry" if our Jewish Senators fail to give praise to Jesus Christ on Christmas? Not me; Arlen Specter is one of my Senators, and although I don't like much of what he does, I will not criticize him for failing to render praise to Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the One true God. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is the first commandment. Praising Islam as a true religion is a grave violation. Don't you think it would be better to have the Creator of the Universe as an ally than the Muslims? Or is that stuff just for sunday school and doesn't actually work in real life?

The Bible is filled with rebukes toward leaders. And, it also instructs us to pray for them.

I thought the whole thing was a typical Bush compromise designed to maintain votes on both sides of the issue. Maybe you could start another post to convince us, seriously I'd like to find out I'm wrong on this one.

So, if I didn't like Clinton's actions it was ok to skewer him relentlessly but Bush enjoys special scriptural protection reserved for Republicans?

I agree and that we should both "harp" and pursue public means to change things. One big change needed is to get rid of Bush and all his liberal cohorts in the next election. Hopefully we can find some conservative pro-life Republicans, but they are few and far between anymore.

 

Please enter your final comments on this thread as it has reached the third page. Either The Squire or myself will close it by morning.
Murph

 

Amen to everything Pennsylvania Jim just said.