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News: To whom does the land of Palestine belong?????

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, Jun 15, 2003.

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  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    OK, see ya later! ;)
     
    #21 LadyEagle, Jun 16, 2003
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    SheEagle, before you go, you asked for a link to my church, well here it is:- Church

    Re PMD - I guess you'll find a variety of views at our church. I don't think you'll find much on the website. I would imagine that most people there, like me, would take a rather agnostic view on the whole thing, as Scripture is ambiguous on the subject and we have in mind the Lord's injunction that "no-one knows except the Father". I'm not up to putting God in a box, and this kind of thing (PMD)really isn't a show-stopper for me - it's a Plymouth Brethren doctrine not a Baptist one, as I keep saying - Baptists are free o take it or leave it - so I'm not sure why you seem to be insisting that those who don't hold to it aren't 'proper Baptists' not sure the likes of Smyth, Kiffin, Knollys and Keach would agree with you there.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #22 Matt Black, Jun 16, 2003
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    SheEagle9/11, I don't want to put words in your mouth but I am trying to understand your viewpoint. [​IMG] Would I be correct in understanding that you believe anyone who is not a dispensational premillennialist is a liberal and anti-Semitic?
     
    #23 KenH, Jun 16, 2003
  4. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    What, pray tell, is an "agnostic Baptistic view?" :confused:
     
    #24 LadyEagle, Jun 16, 2003
  5. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Not if you like Ann Coulter!! LOL! [​IMG]
     
    #25 LadyEagle, Jun 16, 2003
  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    It is hard in this format to lay out the political diagram I came across in my yoot (youth, for my Brooklynese impared readers). But yes, in reality, left and right are meaningless terms in modern politics. The questions are rather:</font>
    1. Who owns and controls the means of production (real property, money, labor, machinery, ect.)?</font>
    2. How much control does the government have in over the lives of individuals?</font>
    The first question diverges from the popular divisions of economic theory Capitalism, Marxism/Communism, Socialism, Syndicalism, etc.. So, back in the 60s, Henry Ford II and Leonid Brezhnev were both capitalists. One believed in the private ownership and control of the means of production and the other in State ownership and control. To round out the list, here are some working definitions:</font>
    • Free Enterprise-Private Ownership and Control of the means of production.</font>
    • Communism-State Ownership and Control of all means of production.</font>
    • Socialism-State Ownership and Control of raw materials and basic industry (The state owns the coal mine but Mr. Smithers own the local grocery).</font>
    • Facism-Private Ownership of the means of production but State Control through regulation of them. Il Duce and his Blackshirts came to power promising the Italian industrialists protection from siezure of their property by the Socialists and/or Communists. They promised Italian labour protection through government regulation.</font>
    • National Socialism (aka nazism)-Private Ownership and Control of the means of production. But, the State allowed for certain companies to monopolize certain industries. (Steel was made by Krupps. I.G. Farben and Bayer had their markets cornered. But, Herr Schmidt own the corner store and Baron Meuller owned his farms.)</font>
    As for question 2, picture a percentage line with a zero at one end and 100 at the other. The zero represents no government (anarchy). The 100 represents total government. Places like Somalia come close to the zero end of the scale. In 2003, the PDRK is the furtherest towards the 100 mark.

    I'll let y'all figure out where Herr Hitler's and his Nazis' position is on the scale.
     
    #26 Squire Robertsson, Jun 16, 2003
  7. Farley

    Farley New Member

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    GOD owns the land.
     
    #27 Farley, Jun 16, 2003
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I say liberal because it is liberals who parse words such as "is"

    Who "parses" these words?

    http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/preterism101.html


    I, for one, would be curious to see the web sites of your home Baptist churches and what their doctrinal statements say regarding this issue. Real curious.

    Here are the preachers I listen too the most: The first two are Partial Preterist the last is Full-Preterist.

    http://www.emmanuel-baptist.org/index2.htm

    http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.htm
     
    #28 Grasshopper, Jun 16, 2003
  9. Eyes on Jesus

    Eyes on Jesus Member

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    The Abrahamic covenant was unconditional, the Mosaic covenant was conditional.

    [​IMG]
     
    #29 Eyes on Jesus, Jun 16, 2003
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    SheEagle - some of us recognise that certain things - like the Trinity, the whole Calvinism/ Arminianism (or Augustinianism/ Pelagianism if you want to go further back)thing are what certain Christians throughout church history have called mysteries ; that is, they are the results, if you like, of God's infinite nature, which our finite minds cannot possibly grasp. Many Baptists I know are content with that, and the same goes for the eschatological mysteries. We try to be a little less modernistic and don't necessarily insist on trying to put God into a box on such matters.

    And, BTW, if Hitler really was a socialist, how come his SA were fighting the communists in street battles in 1932? The Squire's analysis is very good; I seem to remember it in terms of rather funny illustration involving cows.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #30 Matt Black, Jun 17, 2003
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Herr Hitler and his followers weren't Stalinists. Back then, the Left was anything but united and was fairly fratricidal. The Stalinists were fighting the Trotskites, who were fighting the Anarchists, who were fighting the Syndicalists, who were fighting the......

    The SA got their due on the Night of the Long Knives because it was an organization of the Left. (Though that massacre was more like the Persians taking over from the Babylonians.) N.b., the full name of Hitler's party of murderous thugs is the National German Worker's Socialist Party; the German initals being NASDP.

    [ June 17, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]
     
    #31 Squire Robertsson, Jun 17, 2003
  12. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    While nobody is putting God in a box except for those who refuse to read His word and accept it for fact, this thread will be boxed no earlier than 9:00pm eastern time. Feel free to post until then. [​IMG]
    Murph
     
    #32 C.S. Murphy, Jun 17, 2003
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    While nobody is putting God in a box except for those who refuse to read His word and accept it for fact,

    Don't be so hard on yourself.
     
    #33 Grasshopper, Jun 17, 2003
  14. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    It's getting late, I know because I can hear a grasshopper making noise. Since he and apparently some others are confused about the Bible I thought I would submit this. 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
    15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
    16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
    17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
    18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.
    Gen 13:14-18

    [ June 17, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
    #34 C.S. Murphy, Jun 17, 2003
  15. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Closing time. It is now around 8:00. But we can always start another thread! [​IMG]

    SheEagle 9/11
    Moderator
     
    #35 LadyEagle, Jun 18, 2003
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