NHS: Starving Alfie to death was just 'redirecting care'

[Matt Black]

No-one's killed anyone.

Tell me, when you watch an episode of 'ER' and they're in the recovery room and someone says "I think we should stop now", do you jump up and point your finger at the screen shouting "Murderers!"?

 

[carpro]

I've explained already to you how it works: the Court's medical expert witnesses guide the judge.

The parents had the same expert medical guidance. But, according to you, they weren't medically qualified enough to decide what was best for Alfie. But it didn't matter that the judge was no more qualified than they were.

Got it.

 

[Matt Black]

The difference is that the judge was willing to be guided by the evidence. The parents weren't and neither it seems are you.

Yes, I've got that. When will you?

 

[carpro]

No-one's killed anyone.

Yeah. Right. Withholding nourishment for 5 days from a sick child is normal in the UK?

 

[Matt Black]

ER question to you again then. Answer that first and then we'll talk about Alfie

 

[carpro]

The difference is that the judge was willing to be guided by the evidence. The parents weren't and neither it seems are you.

 

[carpro]

ER question to you again then. Answer that first and then we'll talk about Alfie

Dumb question. No one starves to death in the ER.

 

[Matt Black]

No, but they stop artificially keeping them alive at that point.

Same with Alfie. So, bad luck but quite a sensible question in fact, which you I note you have still failed to answer.

 

[carpro]

No, but they stop artificially keeping them alive at that point.

.

So in the UK, providing nourishment to a sick child is "artificially" keeping them alive.

Got it.

 

[Matt Black]

Nope, wrong again: providing nourishment and ventilation to a person who is basically all but brain dead and cannot breathe unaided for any length of time is artificially keeping them alive.

Got it yet?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Come on Steve, shouldn’t the final decision have been in the hands of the parents ( provided they were not deemed incapable).

Yes, of course it should. I'm hoping that the publicity of the case will bring about change in the law over this.
But to say that Alfie was starved is not true; to say that the parents could not have a second (and third) opinion is not true, and to say that there was any other diagnosis given which opposed that of the doctors at Alder Hey is not true.

Personally, I am not utterly wedded to the NHS and would consider an insurance-based service as is the case in many other countries. But the fact is that most people in the UK will not consider any alternative to the NHS and any party promoting an alternative would be committing political suicide.

Also, I have to say that the NHS saved my wife's life three years ago, when she was suddenly taken ill, and it has just safely delivered my first grandchild

 

[carpro]

Nope, wrong again: providing nourishment and ventilation to a person who is basically all but brain dead and cannot breathe unaided for any length of time is artificially keeping them alive.

Got it yet?

Yep. Got it.

You're OK with depriving an already weakened Alfie of nourishment for 5 days.

Since taking him off the ventilator for 5 days didn't do the job, starvation had to help it along.

If he doesn't die one way , kill him some other way.

Got it.

 

[Matt Black]

I'm OK with letting a dying child for whom nothing further can be done die a natural death with dignity rather than try to resist God's will

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 3:30 PM Pacific\10:30 PM GMT.

 

[carpro]

I'm OK with letting a dying child for whom nothing further can be done die a natural death with dignity rather than try to resist God's will

According to your previous post, you are also ok with withholding nourishment from a sick child.

aka starvation. that's hardly a "natural death".

 

[Matt Black]

If the artificial feeding through a tube in the stomach is part and parcel of prolonging his life artificially when his brain has ceased to function, yes. We can hook someone up to a machine who's brain dead and keep their body going theoretically indefinitely by such methods. Doesn't mean we should. "Everything is possible, but not everything is beneficial or desirable."

 

[carpro]

If the artificial feeding through a tube in the stomach is part and parcel of prolonging his life artificially when his brain has ceased to function, yes. We can hook someone up to a machine who's brain dead and keep their body going theoretically indefinitely by such methods. Doesn't mean we should. "Everything is possible, but not everything is beneficial or desirable."

You should be bureaucrat working for the NHS. You'd fit right in.

 

[Matt Black]

I will accept that as a compliment as I know many very good people including good Christians who work for the NHS and have to deal with a great deal of strife from chronic underfunding by the Tories to fund tax cuts for their rich cronies to the sort of ignorance very difficult cases such as this bring to the fore

 

[Alcott]

Your post makes me sick. It really makes me want to vomit.

If you do, make a video and post it here.

 

[carpro]

I will accept that as a compliment as I know many very good people including good Christians who work for the NHS and have to deal with a great deal of strife from chronic underfunding by the Tories to fund tax cuts for their rich cronies to the sort of ignorance very difficult cases such as this bring to the fore

Yep. Denying care to people who need it. Especially if it's too expensive.

No 75 year old will ever get a knee replacement.

Deciding when to "let" people die, regardless of what the family wants.

Denying life saving care to a 90 year old because it won't extend their life long enough to make it worth the expense, all the while whining about a lack of funds because your welfare eutopia is unsustainable.

But most of all telling parents they are not capable of caring for their sick child, that they must be killed in the hospital. And taking them to court to be sure the child is killed right. By starvation.

We call 'em death panels. And you'd like to serve on one. Hmmmm.............