Nicodemus and Jesus have a Jewish Conversation

[Sai]

Much of the Bible can be understood without a Jewish perspective but some areas of scripture need to be viewed in the light of a first century believing Jew’s perspective. This thread will demonstrate that such a perspective is imperative to fully comprehend what is being said in those areas of the biblical narrative.


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[JonC]

This conversation is one of the best examples of why it is important to understand the 1st century Jewish perspective (and politics). I look forward to you expounding on this topic.

 

[Sai]

This conversation is one of the best examples of why it is important to understand the 1st century Jewish perspective (and politics). I look forward to you expounding on this topic.

I’m not much of an expounder just a student. But I can share what I’ve learned.


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[Sai]

Jesus uses a Jewish form of teaching in his engagement with Nicodemus. One in which the rabbi first starts a lesson by speaking on a subject that is known by the student and then moves on into what is not known.

Nicodemus was a teacher of a Pharisaic school much like a modern college professor in our day. He was taught in accordance with first century Pharisaic Judaism that all Jews automatically were saved and guaranteed a place in heaven by virtue of his Jewish birth. Yeshua begins.

Nicodemus had been born again 4 of 6 possible ways a person could be born again within his form of Judaism.
The fact that Nick mentioned his age in relation to going back into his mum’s womb tells the careful student of scripture that he understood and followed what Messiah was saying. Because it does not matter if one is old or young, returning to the womb is an impossibility. The six ways of being born anew were (1) at one’s bar-mitzvah, (2) when a man got married, (3) when a man became a Pharisee, (4) if the man became a teaching leader of the Pharisees, (5) a gentile proselytizing into Judaism, and (6) a direct descendant of David ascending onto the throne in Jerusalem. Nick already had 4 and didn’t qualify for the other 2.

Yeshua then goes into the error of what Nick believed by teaching him that spiritual birth was required for entering into the kingdom of God.

 

[JonC]

It always bothered me that some sermons on the topic treat Nicodemus as if he were an idiot. He was a scholar of Scripture, having memorized much at a young age. He understood what Jesus was speaking of with a "spiritual birth" (you do not get to be Nicodemus without understanding the occasional metaphor). I believe he understood what Jesus was saying but not the context or nature of the kingdom of which He spoke.

 

[Sai]

It always bothered me that some sermons on the topic treat Nicodemus as if he were an idiot. He was a scholar of Scripture, having memorized much at a young age. He understood what Jesus was speaking of with a "spiritual birth" (you do not get to be Nicodemus without understanding the occasional metaphor). I believe he understood what Jesus was saying but not the context or nature of the kingdom of which He spoke.

Even the disciples did not understand the kingdom program until the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Another major factor in the immaturity of the Old Testament saints was that the Law kept them in a state of spiritual adolescence. They could not reach spiritual adulthood because the Law did not take away their sins but only covered them. We are now able to live out our lives with the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and our law, the Law of Christ aka the Law of Liberty does not have the element of human failure by the flesh because we are already justified over and against those pre - cross who were required to continually offer sacrifices for sin.
Now by faith we are required to only confess our sins and this is met by complete forgiveness and cleansing of all even forgotten sins. Therefore, we can come before the Father boldly without the Temple, without the scarifies, and recover from our guilty consciences for our daily failures.


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[JonC]

Even the disciples did not understand the kingdom program until the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Another major factor in the immaturity of the Old Testament saints was that the Law kept them in a state of spiritual adolescence. They could not reach spiritual adulthood because the Law did not take away their sins but only covered them. We are now able to live out our lives with the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and our law, the Law of Christ aka the Law of Liberty does not have the element of human failure by the flesh because we are already justified over and against those pre - cross who were required to continually offer sacrifices for sin.
Now by faith we are required to only confess our sins and this is met by complete forgiveness and cleansing of all even forgotten sins. Therefore, we can come before the Father boldly without the Temple, without the scarifies, and recover from our guilty consciences for our daily failures.


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Good points. Not only were they under the Law, but the Law itself was purposed to testify against them. Salvation would come as the righteous of God manifested apart from the Law. They should have understood but did not have the proper category.

 

[Sai]

Good points. Not only were they under the Law, but the Law itself was purposed to testify against them. Salvation would come as the righteous of God manifested apart from the Law. They should have understood but did not have the proper category.

Well, many did. Like David who said that blessed was the man to whom God would not impute sin. And then also said that the Mosaic law was his delight meditating in it day and night. In my observation the law was a real zinger for those who were saved because even tho salvation never comes thru law but by grace alone, God always has a rule of life for the saved and for them it was an undoable request of keeping the law of Moses. That as well as not having a permanent indwelling of the very Spirit of God is so very different from who we are today as members of the Body of Christ.

 

[JonC]

Well, many did. Like David who said that blessed was the man to whom God would not impute sin. And then also said that the Mosaic law was his delight meditating in it day and night. In my observation the law was a real zinger for those who were saved because even tho salvation never comes thru law but by grace alone, God always has a rule of life for the saved and for them it was an undoable request of keeping the law of Moses. That as well as not having a permanent indwelling of the very Spirit of God is so very different from who we are today as members of the Body of Christ.

Here is how I understand the topic (if you disagree you are probably right, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. But it is how I see it).

There are a lot of things to consider. I do not think that we can accurately compare David’s experience to that of Nicodemus (and 1st century Jewish thought) because Jewish thought was not the same. David held a religion that was, by the first century, divided among extremes. The Sadducees held a faith centered on the Temple, believing that the Temple is where the Law belonged and was accomplished. The Pharisees held a faith centered on the people (on Israel) believing that the Law belonged to the people and that was where it would be accomplished. The first century Jewish concern was how Israel would be in a right standing with the covenant they inherited by birth. So the Law was not a means to obtain salvation (they believed they were born within the Covenant) but rather one’s standing, and Israel’s standing as a whole, within that Covenant.

In this way we are looking at a remnant theology, not a theology centered on obtaining salvation but a theology of inclusion. Jesus’ words to Nicodemus places the religion of the Sadducees and the Pharisee’s outside of the kingdom of God. To be righteous, or right with God’s covenant with Abraham (not the Law but the Promise) one must be reborn. This means what Nicodemus held was obsolete. He could never see the kingdom of God on his current path. God’s righteousness was being manifested apart from the Law, not through it.

I absolutely agree with your use of David and Mary, though. Not for their religious views but because of the activity of the Spirit. This is something I believe Nicodemus did not understand, but would come to understand through the Spirit (I say this based on his actions later on in Scripture).