Nicolaitans and Muslims

[Mark Osgatharp]

Joseph,

In order for your argument to hold water, we would have to look at the statements of the Koran taken in context and determine that, after all, they really don't violence against the opposers of Islam. Whereas I don't have a copy of the Koran at my current disposal (I had one but don't know what happened to it) I cannot do that at this moment.

However, considering that Mohammed himself - the man founded the Muslaim religion - used violence to advance Islam, I see no reason not to understand the Koranic teachings about "Jihad" in a most literal sense. To take them otherwise would be sort of like saying that Moses didn't really mean for the Jews to sack the promised land and exterminate all idolaters.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

And therefore, your view of what the Koran teaches is mostly based on your view of the world and your interpretation. The bottom line for me is that a book does not cause violence. Evil men do. Just as they did on 9-11. Just as they did in Nazi Germany. Just as they did in the South during slavery and segregation. Just as they have done in Israel. But also, just as it is unfair to relate all Christianity to the KKK, Adolph Hitler, or the Crusades, it is equally unfair to relate all Muslims to those who perpetrated 9-11. If we did that, how would we explain all those Muslims who have helped us rescue captive soldiers, or those who embraced Democracy by the millions this past January?

Flushing a Koran down the toilet is not going to stop the violence.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

If we did that, how would we explain all those Muslims who have helped us rescue captive soldiers,

I only recall one who did that. Perhaps there have been hundreds of others that haven't been reported in the news?

or those who embraced Democracy by the millions this past January?

Democracy? In an Islamic State where Islam is the religion? True Democracy and True Islam are diametrically opposed.

Mark is absolutely correct. It has nothing to do with world view. It does, however, have everything to do with what Islam teaches. The goal of Islam is world domination. This is the third jihad.

Flushing a Koran down the toilet is not going to stop the violence.

You are correct. However, exposing the truth about Islam and it's political/religious goals - instead of being politically correct and being afraid of offending someone - may help to curtail the violence for awhile. Until they rise up and the beheading starts. You never answered the question I have posed repeatedly, Joseph: What happens if 1 million Muslims in America rose up and decided to start the jihad all at once? Our military is mostly overseas.

And I saw thrones, and they that sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and to the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. Revelation 20:4

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />or those who embraced Democracy by the millions this past January?

Democracy? In an Islamic State where Islam is the religion? True Democracy and True Islam are diametrically opposed.

Mark is absolutely correct. It has nothing to do with world view. It does, however, have everything to do with what Islam teaches. The goal of Islam is world domination. This is the third jihad.</font>[/QUOTE]Well,

That is certainly your worldview and your point of view. I do think you are wrong about that however. Ever since we started handing control over to the Iraqis, all the anti-war crowd has been harping about how this is going to turn into a civil war, and yet, that has not come to pass. They have also been whining and complaining about how Democracy is not even a good thing because the majority will leave out the minority. This has not come to pass either. The Shia are being as inclusive as they possibly can and the majority of the folks making up the insurgency are not even Iraqis. That is because Iraq always has been and is an integral part of the global war on terror. There is a reason the terrorists don't want us there, LE, and it has nothing really to do with Islam. If it did, then they wouldn't break their own Islamic law while fighting against us. It is certainly not American Democracy, but, it is a lot better than what they have had under the reign of tyranny of Saddam.

Flushing a Koran down the toilet is not going to stop the violence.

You are correct. However, exposing the truth about Islam and it's political/religious goals - instead of being politically correct and being afraid of offending someone - may help to curtail the violence for awhile. Until they rise up and the beheading starts. You never answered the question I have posed repeatedly, Joseph: What happens if 1 million Muslims in America rose up and decided to start the jihad all at once? Our military is mostly overseas.

And I saw thrones, and they that sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and to the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. Revelation 20:4

[/QUOTE]

1. I don't think anyone has ever accussed me of being afraid of offending someone before...

2. I didn't answer your question because I percieve it to be a silly hypothetical since the majority of the terrorists are now fighting the "infidels" in Iraq trying to hold on to their stronghold in the Middle East. Also, speaking of security at home, I understand it was a bunch of moderate Muslims who turned in the Muslim terrorists this past week in California. Are the moderates not true Muslims, or is it possible that the terrorists are not true Muslims? I think we know what each faction of Muslims would say about the other. What I find disturbing, however, is when Christians seem to further the inflamation of further conflict and violence by trying to encourage the definition of all true Muslims as being violent terrorists. What a shame.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

I understand it was a bunch of moderate Muslims who turned in the Muslim terrorists this past week in California.

From the web sources I've found, it was part of a years-long sting operation. Would appreciate your links which support your statement.

Ever since we started handing control over to the Iraqis, all the anti-war crowd has been harping about how this is going to turn into a civil war, and yet, that has not come to pass. They have also been whining and complaining about how Democracy is not even a good thing because the majority will leave out the minority. This has not come to pass either.

First, not enough time has passed to tell what the end result will be.

Secondly, please list all the other *Muslim Democratic Countries* which do not persecute Christians and allow total religious freedom. Thank you.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I understand it was a bunch of moderate Muslims who turned in the Muslim terrorists this past week in California.

From the web sources I've found, it was part of a years-long sting operation. Would appreciate your links which support your statement.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't have a link to support this claim, therefore I will concede the point. It was a small blurb I heard on the news about it the other day. However, I did find information stating that there is a rift in this Islamic Community between mainstream Muslims who are encouraging more of a pluralistic society, and those who are holding on to a more traditional exclusive view of Islam:

The Hayats and the imams are on opposite sides of a struggle between Pakistani factions in and around Lodi: The Hayats are aligned with a faction supporting more traditional Islamic values; the imams with another group seeking greater cooperation and understanding from the larger community.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159134,00.html

Ever since we started handing control over to the Iraqis, all the anti-war crowd has been harping about how this is going to turn into a civil war, and yet, that has not come to pass. They have also been whining and complaining about how Democracy is not even a good thing because the majority will leave out the minority. This has not come to pass either.

First, not enough time has passed to tell what the end result will be.

Secondly, please list all the other *Muslim Democratic Countries* which do not persecute Christians and allow total religious freedom. Thank you. [/QUOTE]

1. How much time do you need?

2. Go to Amazon.com sometime and order Oliver North's book entitled: A Greater Freedom . In the very last chapter of the book is the story of an Iraqi Christian told from his point of view that I think you will find most interesting.

3. Iraq is not America, and neither have we ever asked them to be. But, on the other hand, if you think we have total religous freedom here in America, then I don't want to hear anymore harping about prayer in school and the 10 commandments, ok?

Nobody is perfect.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Ben W]

Why are Christians so upset to learn that the goal of Islam is complete world domination of Islam?

What do you really expect the goal of another religion other than Christianity to be?

 

[HankD]

What do you really expect the goal of another religion other than Christianity to be?

It would be nice if they would refrain from cutting off our heads because we are satisfied with our own belief system (or lack thereof) , but I suppose burning at the stake isn't a whole lot better either.

HankD