No Bible Doctrine Called Sovereign Grace

[Silverhair]

God uses means. See Romans10:13-15. And it is God who makes one willing to call upon the name of the Lord and look to Him alone to have met all of the conditions necessary for him to be saved and to be the Lord his Righteousness.

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power. - Psalms 110:3

I agree God uses means, creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel etc. But man still has to respond to those means. That is free will plain and simple.

Ken it seems you have misunderstood the text of Psalms 110:3. It is not unbelievers but believers that are being referenced here. They freely come to join His army.

Psa 110:3 Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours. ESV

Psa 110:3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. NKJV

Psa 110:3 Your troops will be willing on your day of battle.Arrayed in holy majesty,from the womb of the dawn you will receive the dew of your youth. NIV

Psa 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew. NASB

Psa 110:3 Your people willingly follow you when you go into battle. On the holy hills at sunrise the dew of your youth belongs to you. NET

Psa 110:3 עַמְּךָ֣ H5971 Thy people נְדָבֹת֮ H5071 [shall be] willing בְּי֪וֹם H3117 in the day חֵ֫ילֶ֥ךָ H2428 of thy power בְּֽהַדְרֵי־ H1926 in the beauties קֹ֭דֶשׁ H6944 of holiness מֵרֶ֣חֶם H7358 from the womb מִשְׁחָ֑ר H4891 of the morning לְ֝ךָ֗ H0 טַ֣ל H2919 thou hast the dew יַלְדֻתֶֽיךָ׃ H3208 of thy youth HSB

H5071
- Phonetic: ned-aw-baw'
- Definition:
1. voluntariness, free-will offering
a. voluntariness
b. freewill, voluntary, offering

- Origin: from H5068
- TWOT entry: 1299a
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine


Derivative TWOT Number: 1299a
Derivative Transliteration: ne daba
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: H5071
Derivative Definition: freewill offering.

 

[KenH]

With the calvinist I am not sure what they believe as each one seems to have a different view of salvation.

Let me clarify for you - God's elect are saved by Christ having met all of the conditions for their salvation. The elect's sins were imputed to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness was imputed to them. God makes them willing in the day of His power to come to saving faith in Christ and repentance from dead works to look to Christ as the Lord their Righteousness.

 

[KenH]

That is free will plain and simple.

Nope. Do you not see the words "Thy power" in the verse?

 

[DaveXR650]

If you go all in with free will and you are concerned about God being "fair" then it seems it would be morally wrong to pray for the salvation of friends or relatives. After all, if we are all made aware of faith being required of us then to pray that your friend be given special help is morally wrong. They were told the rules and now it's up to them.

On the other hand, if the Calvinists are right, you won't come because you are unable. But the inability is simply moral and you aren't inclined to come. You must have a work of the Holy Spirit or you won't come. If they are right all the verses that you say show free will do indeed - men won't come because they love darkness rather than light, they would rather continue in sin and so on. These verses are describing your free will. And verses describing pressing into the kingdom or striving to enter in at the strait gate or pressing toward the mark really do describe free will also. A renewed free will acted on by the Holy Spirit.

I don't think God meticulously determines every single molecular movement even though I'm aware of Edwards argument on that. But I do think God is totally sovereign in our salvation. I think Edwards nailed it when it comes to our "free will". When you get beyond the idea of "doing what we most want at the moment" it ceases to be free because it's easily influenced by everything from circumstances to hormones and when it comes to salvation the big thing of course is our sin nature.

 

[Silverhair]

Let me clarify for you - God's elect are saved by Christ having met all of the conditions for their salvation. The elect's sins were imputed to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness was imputed to them. God makes them willing in the day of His power to come to saving faith in Christ and repentance from dead works to look to Christ as the Lord their Righteousness.

That is not what the day of His power means Ken. You are reading into the text what you want to find rather than letting the text speak for itself.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope. Do you not see the words "Thy power" in the verse?

Do you have a problem with understand English. What do you not understand from the post I made. Or do you only believe theological texts that agree with your view?

 

[Brightfame52]

God is absolutely Sovereign in Grace, Mercy, Salvation Rom 9:18-20

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

This passage in essence teaches that God saves whom He wills and damns whom He will, and of course the sinful natural mind immediately rejects this.

 

[Silverhair]

God is absolutely Sovereign in Grace, Mercy, Salvation Rom 9:18-20

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

This passage in essence teaches that God saves whom He wills and damns whom He will, and of course the sinful natural mind immediately rejects this.

So your theology just negates the bible that shows that man is held responsible for the choices they make. Such is calvinism.

 

[DaveXR650]

, if by sovereignty one means he WILL not allow some (most) to believe him and come.

"There is no positive act in God, as though he put forth any power to harden the heart. To suppose any such thing would be to put God the immediate author of sin." This is from Jonathan Edwards sermon on Romans 9:18. Page 849 in his works.

 

[AVL1984]

"There is no positive act in God, as though he put forth any power to harden the heart. To suppose any such thing would be to put God the immediate author of sin." This is from Jonathan Edwards sermon on Romans 9:18. Page 849 in his works.

Yet, don't we find in Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Book smarts ain't exactly God smarts all the time. God also says he'll harden whom he wills. UGH...Some people's theology on these forum really leads me to believe Christianity is full of fools concerning a lot of things.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yet, don't we find in Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Book smarts ain't exactly God smarts all the time.

Edwards explains that in his sermon on Romans 9:18. I'm sure you will be surprised to find that guys like Edwards thought of things like that before they did a sermon. Read it if you want. Or not.

 

[AVL1984]

Edwards explains that in his sermon on Romans 9:18. I'm sure you will be surprised to find that guys like Edwards thought of things like that before they did a sermon. Read it if you want. Or not.

I read a lot of Edwards when I was in Bible college 40+ years ago. Read many others as well.

 

[JD731]

God is absolutely Sovereign in Grace, Mercy, Salvation Rom 9:18-20

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

This passage in essence teaches that God saves whom He wills and damns whom He will, and of course the sinful natural mind immediately rejects this.

No, this passage does not in essence teach that God saves those who do not believe him by something that is called sovereign grace that the scriptures knows nothing about. Salvation is by faith of those who hear his promise to save them when they believe the gospel of Christ because they have considered the consequence of surely facing a thrice holy God, who has power to cast them into the lake of fire for eternity, which is the penalty of sin.

This passage in Ro 9 has a Jewish context and both the reference to Pharaoh and Hosea and Abraham, and Esau and Rebekah and Jacob and Esaiah and Jews and gentiles and the children of Abraham and Sarah and the children of God and the Law of Moses is an argument that Jews would know about from their own OT scriptures and would be but instruction for us today. God is not attempting to teach the non doctrine of sovereign grace from these references but he is teaching his providential dealing with Israel in this time period when he has made a way of being born into the family of God by sending the gift of his Spirit (Ro 8) through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ his Son to accomplish his eternal purpose of forming his church in this time of Israel's national blindness, beginning with the salvation of the remnant of Jewish believers and later extending to gentile believers in Christ. These things were not a matter of prophesy in the OT and needed explanation.

Anyone who is able to reason should be able to figure that this people who had lived under the law of Moses for 1500 years and who were now hearing all the NT preachers say that the restrictions of the law had ended for them , and gentiles are now being received as equal with them as the children of God would need an explanation of the present reality. They would need to know if their national covenants were being annulled. These chapters assure them that the covenants will be fulfilled and the promises kept to Israel after the church is complete, but not until then.

A remnant of believing Jews are being saved now but when the church is complete then this is the promise;

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Do these verses need to make any sense to you? He is saving a remnant now, but then he will save all who are left on the earth. No more remnant doctrine with Israel at that time.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning -
This thread will be closed no sooner than 11 pm EST / 8 pm PST

 

[AustinC]

No, this passage does not in essence teach that God saves those who do not believe him by something that is called sovereign grace that the scriptures knows nothing about. Salvation is by faith of those who hear his promise to save them when they believe the gospel of Christ because they have considered the consequence of surely facing a thrice holy God, who has power to cast them into the lake of fire for eternity, which is the penalty of sin.

What I see is no need for God to make a person alive from the dead in your view. One might as well ignore Ephesians 2:1-10 as well as all passages that tell us about God's election, choosing and predestination of sinners unto eternal life. In your view, all a person needs do is give intellectual assent and believe in his own good choice.

Such a view is, however, humanistic and glorifies the power of man while ignoring the great work of God in saving souls.

Apart from God doing the work of redemption, a person will never humble themselves and bow to God when what they desire is self-worship. JD, you have created a humanistic fantasy of how a person is saved.

 

[AustinC]

Daniel 9:18
“O my God, lean down and listen to me. Open your eyes and see our despair. See how your city—the city that bears your name—lies in ruins. We make this plea, not because we deserve help, but because of your mercy.

 

[Aaron]

These are believers that Paul is addressing here so we know they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and as such are guided by Him. Paul has told them to strive to be Christ like in their daily walk. Php 2:3 Instead of being motivated by selfish ambition or vanity, each of you should, in humility, be moved to treat one another as more important than yourself. NET

It says the desire and the power in a man to do what pleases God comes from God Himself. You seem to be saying, not exclusively, because some men have that desire and power when they're saved, because they choose to believe.

 

[Aaron]

God knows what man will freely do but God does not cause man to do it.God knows who will reject Him and who will trust in Him but He does not cause either to happen.

This is actually saying that God saves some people because they're better than others.

 

[Silverhair]

It says the desire and the power in a man to do what pleases God comes from God Himself. You seem to be saying, not exclusively, because some men have that desire and power when they're saved, because they choose to believe.

Just like the bible says in Ephesians 1:13 hear and believe the gospel message and you will be saved or does your bible say something different?

 

[Silverhair]

This is actually saying that God saves some people because they're better than others.

What does better have to do with it? That is just the calvinist way of avoiding the reality that people actually do have a God given free will. What made you so special that God picked you out before time began, how were you different from all the other billions of people that would live? Were you going to be smarter or sin less or did you just win the lottery and your number came up?