Isaiah40:28
New Member
webdog said:
Huh??
It's painful to read this stuff.
Now I remember why I took a hiatus.
I think I'll go work on the laundry. At least that's productive.
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"No Conditions?"
- Thread starter skypair
- Start date
Huh??
It's painful to read this stuff.
Now I remember why I took a hiatus.
I think I'll go work on the laundry. At least that's productive.
mcdirector
Active Member
Amy.G said:
OUCH!
You're killing me here! :laugh:
Here's the quote in the opening post with a little more context:
Some describe true love as "unconditional love." This concept can be either a coin of pure gold or a gilded rock in the fraud's bag of tricks. It is at once true or grossly false depending upon how it is understood. The preacher who smiles benignly from his pulpit, assuring us that 'God loves you just as you are' tells a monstrous lie. The kingdom of God is much more rigorous in its requirements that Mr. Rogers neighborhood. The gospel of love may not be sugarcoated with saccharin grace. God does not accept the arrogant man in his arrogance. He turns his holy back on the impenitent. To be sure, He demonstrates love towards His fallen beings, but that love has holy demands. We must come to Him with bended knee and a contrite heart.
Some describe true love as "unconditional love." This concept can be either a coin of pure gold or a gilded rock in the fraud's bag of tricks. It is at once true or grossly false depending upon how it is understood. The preacher who smiles benignly from his pulpit, assuring us that 'God loves you just as you are' tells a monstrous lie. The kingdom of God is much more rigorous in its requirements that Mr. Rogers neighborhood. The gospel of love may not be sugarcoated with saccharin grace. God does not accept the arrogant man in his arrogance. He turns his holy back on the impenitent. To be sure, He demonstrates love towards His fallen beings, but that love has holy demands. We must come to Him with bended knee and a contrite heart.
Brother Bob
New Member
Jhn 14:15¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Seems to be conditions on our part according to Jesus.
Deu 6:5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Even though God loves all, to know that love we have some conditions.
Seems to be conditions on our part according to Jesus.
Deu 6:5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Even though God loves all, to know that love we have some conditions.
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Thanks, Russ. So "election" or "salvation" is apparently CONDITIONAL, right? You can't be elect or saved until you bend the knee and have a contrite heart.russell55 said:
So where does that put RT and Calvinism now? This appears to be a complete denial of the "big U?"
skypair
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
skypair said:
SP,
I am continually amazed (I probably shouldn't be) how the simple doctrine of election escapes your attention. You need to look at the doctrine of election biblically, and look at the doctrine of soteriolgy biblically. What does the Bible say concerning election (God's choice of people) in regards to condiions?
You have read these Scriptures, but I will post them again:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Eph 1:3-6
RB Commentary: I go through a pretty simple exercise to let the text TELL ME what to think and believe: I ask questions:
Q.Who has chosen?
A. God the Father.
Q. How has He blessed us?
A. Though Jesus Christ our Lord
Q. What are His blessings?
A. Election and predestination.
Q. When did God bless us?
A. Before the foundation of the world.
Q. Why did God bless us?
A. That we would be adopted sons, holy, and blameless before Him.
Q. On what grounds did He bless us?
A. His love, purpose, good pleasure, and will. Simply: Because it pleased Him to do so. He has MADE us accepted in the Beloved (Christ Jesus).
Those are the questions I ask which I draw from the Scripture and the answers are from the Scriptures. What you are missing in your attack on unconditional election is that God chose persons to be blessed in Christ:
1. Before the world began.
2. They were chosen because of God's good pleasure and purpose.
Hope that clears things up for folks.
Thanks for your patience, RB. I do realize that "election" comes "before the foundation of the earth," thx. But when we talk about "election," we are talking about "predestination," aren't we?
Rom 8:29 -- Those whom He did foreknow, He did predestine [or "elect" or "choose"] to be conformed to the image of His Son."
Step #1: Foreknown "in Christ" was through foreseen repentance and trusting of Him.
Step #2: Predestined/elected to be like Jesus.
TIME BEGINS: Adam ... Noah ... Abraham ... Jesus ...
Step #3: The predestined (who were foreknown) are "called" during their lives, right?
Step #4: When He called or "drew" them, they did "come" and were justified in Christ.
Step #5: The justified are glorified -- that is, the Holy Spirit was given to dwell in them (This is how every "revival" in Acts unfolded -- gospel call, belief justification, and glorifying regeneration.). Do you know that we are glorified in Christ while we live? Yup! That's why Paul didn't say justified - sanctified - glorified.
Foreknowing may have 2 phases: a) passive in which God foresees and b) active in that He then elects those He foresees. But it is first passive by which God knows who will believe and, thus, who to "bless."
skypair
Hope that clears things up for folks.[/QUOTE]
Yes, to spiritual blessings and conformance to Christ's image, right?ReformedBaptist said:
"In Christ," right? IOW, we had to be "in Christ" or these things would not be ours. It's like saying He blessed us in Christ and accordingly, He chose/predestined us to adoption, to His will, to be made accepted in His Son.
The 2 (election and predestination) are the same thing. They result from being "in Christ."
Yes,
Also true.
But why did that please Him to do so? Because we were foreknown in Christ.
Rom 8:29 -- Those whom He did foreknow, He did predestine [or "elect" or "choose"] to be conformed to the image of His Son."
Step #1: Foreknown "in Christ" was through foreseen repentance and trusting of Him.
Step #2: Predestined/elected to be like Jesus.
TIME BEGINS: Adam ... Noah ... Abraham ... Jesus ...
Step #3: The predestined (who were foreknown) are "called" during their lives, right?
Step #4: When He called or "drew" them, they did "come" and were justified in Christ.
Step #5: The justified are glorified -- that is, the Holy Spirit was given to dwell in them (This is how every "revival" in Acts unfolded -- gospel call, belief justification, and glorifying regeneration.). Do you know that we are glorified in Christ while we live? Yup! That's why Paul didn't say justified - sanctified - glorified.
I realize it -- and it is the time element that throws you off, not me. It goes without saying that God "elects"/predestines before creation. What Calvinists can't seem to comprehend is that God also "foreknows" before creation -- that foreknowing is NOT the same as "electing"/"predestining."
Foreknowing may have 2 phases: a) passive in which God foresees and b) active in that He then elects those He foresees. But it is first passive by which God knows who will believe and, thus, who to "bless."
skypair
Hope that clears things up for folks.[/QUOTE]
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IfbReformer
New Member
skypair said:
Reminds me of John Piper and John MacArthur.
John Piper has a whole couple of chapters in his book "Future Grace" where he talks about "conditional grace" - I do believe in undconditional election, but I believe alot of Calvinists, including Piper, MacArthur and Sproul(among others) have this completely wrong.
IFBReformer
Isaiah40:28
New Member
skypair said:
Oh my.
Proof of your election is your ability and willingness to "bend the knee and have a contrite heart".
If God's Spirit has not worked to renew your sinful nature, then you will not have the desire to bend a knee in contrition.
The desire for godly repentance comes from the gracious work of the Holy Spirit and is not produced naturally by fallen man.
And the Holy Spirit only produces the desire for godly repentance in the elect.
That's the premise of the "big I".
The rest are hardened by the convictions of the Holy Spirit and only bring further condemnation to themselves.
Sounds to me like you place the cart before the horse, Issy. Sounds like Sproul's rationale is that God won't save you until you are broken and contrite. I don't see Sproul even mentioning the Spirit, do you? He speaks of "love" and what God sees in man.Isaiah40:28 said:
Don't you see Sproul calling for some kind of "merit" before we can approach God for salvation? "Bend the knee" has always been connected with salvation, with responsive belief, to me (or at the GWT, with confession of Him). Obviously, after one is saved, they would also do so. But Sproul doesn't appear to lay that groundwork in this case.
skypair
BrotherJames
New Member
oh no, thats not true. Even though the bible clearly stated Jesus died for all, God hates sinners and only a few elect can come to him. Don't mind the fact that Hell wasn't made for man. Forget Ezekiel 18:23, He wants people to burn. God hates sinners!
(edit: even i thought that was a little too hasty)
(edit: even i thought that was a little too hasty)
In Isaiah, Jesus if referred to as "God's Elect". Those "in Christ" are therefore "God's elect", too. This must be the same thing, in regards to salvation.russell55 said:
Unconditional election is true in regards to God using man for His purposes (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Pharaoh, etc.).
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
I don't think so. Election regards God's choice of persons. Predestination relates to God's purpose in election.
Yes, the blessings are in Christ.
And these blessings (salvation) was given to us in Christ before the world began.
That's not what I get from Scripture.
The text does not say this. This is the problem with arminian election. It is an insertaion into the text. It does not say they were foreknown that they would believe, repent, et. It says they were foreknown.
Yes, calling happens in time.
It is impossible for them not to come, either in the evangelical arminian scheme or the calvinist. If God foreknew who would repent and believe then they MUST come, otherwise you impugn the foreknowledge of God.
Insane is the best adjective for this I can think of. I am not by any means glorified. I will not be until I die and see Jesus. But its certainty is unquestionable.
God foreknowing is not a problem for me. Of course He would know ahead of time whom He would choose, predestine, justify, sanctify and glorify.
Again, you have inserted an idea to Scripture that doesn't exist. It does not say God knows who will believe and on that account blesses them. It says the exact opposite in fact. Their election is based on God's good pleasure and will. Nothing more. God's foreknowledge, election, and predestination is the reason men repent and believe. In other words, they believe because they are elect. They are not elect because they believe.
Your doctrine is a doctrine of works and not grace. This is why I reject it. We are chosen not because of anything in us (either repentence on our own, faith on our own, contrition on our own, et.) but because God willed to do so. He willed to do so because it seemed good to Him to do it. Therefore it is all of grace. This is exactly what the Scriptures teach and robs man of all the glory of his salvation.
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This is one of the problems I have run into that has helped change my mind.
The Bible doesn't say what God foreknew, or on what basis He chose, except that it was His will and pleasure to do so.
I have always made the assumption that it was because we chose Him, but the Bible doesn't say that.
This is what I am seeing.