"No Conditions?"

[webdog]

This is one of the problems I have run into that has helped change my mind.
The Bible doesn't say what God foreknew, or on what basis He chose, except that it was His will and pleasure to do so.
I have always made the assumption that it was because we chose Him, but the Bible doesn't say that.

Choose for what?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

This is a strawman. Faith is not a work in either camp. If you claim faith is a work for the non cal...faith is also a work for the cal.

God chooses those for salvation based on what He put forth in His Word, by grace through faith.

Does faith originate from the human heart or from God? Does it arise from the unregenerate and on account of that God chooses them? Or does God choose them and on account of His choice people will be believe, for whom He foreknew, he predestined, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

WHo is doing all those things? God. But the evangelical arminian says man is doing something to: hence grace plus works/merit. They actually make faith into something meritorious. Do you?

 

[webdog]

Does faith originate from the human heart or from God? Does it arise from the unregenerate and on account of that God chooses them? Or does God choose them and on account of His choice people will be believe, for whom He foreknew, he predestined, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

WHo is doing all those things? God. But the evangelical arminian says man is doing something to: hence grace plus works/merit. They actually make faith into something meritorious. Do you?

While I'm not "evangelical arminian"...I will say this:

If I cut down a tree with the saw I already possess...or you give me a saw to cut down a tree...does the act of cutting down the tree, or the saw ever change?

If faith is a "work" if man already possess the ability to have it...or whether it's given...it remains the same either way. Faith is faith. If it's a work in ones view...it must be a work in the other's view.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

While I'm not "evangelical arminian"...I will say this:

If I cut down a tree with the saw I already possess...or you give me a saw to cut down a tree...does the act of cutting down the tree, or the saw ever change?

If faith is a "work" if man already possess the ability to have it...or whether it's given...it remains the same either way. Faith is faith. If it's a work in ones view...it must be a work in the other's view.

I am not interest in lumberjack skills. The Scriptures teach me that my salvation is the work of God. I cannot ascribe a single bit of it to myself.

My question is do you? Do you ascribe to yourself and God, or to God alone, the work of your salvation?

RB

 

[webdog]

I am not interest in lumberjack skills. The Scriptures teach me that my salvation is the work of God. I cannot ascribe a single bit of it to myself.

My question is do you? Do you ascribe to yourself and God, or to God alone, the work of your salvation?

RB

I believe I've answered this before...yes. I've answered your question, kindly repay the favor above.

Also, what is the "work of God"? Sending His Son and the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[npetreley]

While I'm not "evangelical arminian"...I will say this:

If I cut down a tree with the saw I already possess...or you give me a saw to cut down a tree...does the act of cutting down the tree, or the saw ever change?

If faith is a "work" if man already possess the ability to have it...or whether it's given...it remains the same either way. Faith is faith. If it's a work in ones view...it must be a work in the other's view.

I think you'll get a lot closer to the truth if you stop trying to find it through analogies.

 

[TCGreek]

I think you'll get a lot closer to the truth if you stop trying to find it through analogies.

I was hoping that someone would say that all along. Webdog, you're busted, my friend! :laugh:

 

[webdog]

I think you'll get a lot closer to the truth if you stop trying to find it through analogies.

...because Jesus never used them

Analogies can show how utterly ridiculous some arguments (like the "faith is a work...for your side") really are.

 

[npetreley]

...because Jesus never used them

Jesus KNEW the truth. He IS the truth. Big difference.

 

[webdog]

I was hoping that someone would say that all along. Webdog, you're busted, my friend! :laugh:

Saying something does not make it true, my friend

 

[webdog]

Jesus KNEW the truth. He IS the truth. Big difference.

...so that makes ALL analogies automatically false if anyone but Jesus uses them? Some logic.

 

[BrotherJames]

wow webdog, i'm supprised you didn't get sucked into calvansim even though you hang out here. Someone is strong :tongue3:

 

[TCGreek]

Saying something does not make it true, my friend

I think npetreley is onto your post.

 

[webdog]

wow webdog, i'm supprised you didn't get sucked into calvansim even though you hang out here. Someone is strong :tongue3:

I was at one point (that's how I found this site). I came here trying to disprove what I was beginning to believe AND what I already did.

 

[TCGreek]

...so that makes ALL analogies automatically false if anyone but Jesus uses them? Some logic.

1. But here's the difference, Truth must first be established before it can be illustrated.

2. And that, my friend, was not lacking in Jesus.

 

[npetreley]

...so that makes ALL analogies automatically false if anyone but Jesus uses them? Some logic.

Not automatically false. Simply automatically questionable. Try sticking to scripture instead of making up analogies to "prove" your points, and you'll make a much more credible case. Anyone can slop together an anlogy to make their points sound right. You're just being incredibly lazy, and all you have accomplished is you made your point "sound" right to a person who is equally lazy and doesn't compare it to scripture. The rest of us see right through your lame analogies.

 

[webdog]

Not automatically false. Simply automatically questionable.

Since it's 'questionable'...prove how it is so. I didn't see you answer it...

Anyone can slop together an anlogy to make their points sound right. You're just being incredibly lazy, and all you have accomplished is you made your point "sound" right to a person who is equally lazy and doesn't compare it to scripture. The rest of us see right through your lame analogies.

Nice. Ad hominems to prove a point. NEXT...

Should the BB take your own advice from the other thread?

 

[npetreley]

Since it's 'questionable'...prove how it is so. I didn't see you answer it...

I'll debate scripture. I try not to debate analogies. One ends up arguing about the analogy and makes no progress at all with the truth.

 

[webdog]

1. But here's the difference, Truth must first be established before it can be illustrated.

2. And that, my friend, was not lacking in Jesus.

...nor was it in my analogy

 

[webdog]

I'll debate scripture. I try not to debate analogies. One ends up arguing about the analogy and makes no progress at all with the truth.

I didn't ask anybody to debate an analogy, I asked a question. You guys sure go through quite a bit to not answer a question, eh? :BangHead: