No dead babies, little children, infants in Hell?

[webdog]

this nebulous group of individuals defined as "the elect".

As many times that Scripture uses the terms elect, election, chosen etc. -- I just do not understand why you refer to the elect as "this nebulous group". If you are a Christian you are part of this "nebulous group" that you denigrate.That is puzzling.I can understand why a non-Christian would have that attitude, but not a believer.

Oh...I don't believe the "elect" are a nebulous group at all...but the way calvinists use the term most certainly defines them as a "nebulous" group since it is not conditioned on anything.

I believe the elect are believing jews in the correct context the word is used in referring to man. I'm a Christian most certainly, but I am not a jew.

 

[Amy.G]

Infants are not sinners, hence they are not spiritually dead (separated) from God. They are "not guilty". Non guilty people are not condemned. It's actually pretty simple.

I think you and I may be the only ones on the BB who believe this.

I think it's really simple as well.


And what is double condemnation?? Isn't one condemnation enough to send you to hell?

 

[Outsider]

Originally Posted by Jarthur001
Then all believers are elect...right?

I can't say that. At least not in the way I believe you are meaning it to be.
I do find in scripture that God does have His elect.
For instance: God elected Israel. There were some converts who were not Israel but became Israel.
I find other evidence. The scripture that SFIC quoted.
Think of the bride and the friends of the bridegroom.
Consider this:
John 6:39-40
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see two people being raised up at the last day. Those that God gave Him (Elect) AND those that see and believe.

This is what I find in scripture.

God bless and many blessings!!!

 

[Jarthur001]

I can't say that. At least not in the way I believe you are meaning it to be.

Hello Outsider.

This is where I do not follow what you are saying.
I was asking about this verse.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

and you said..
He elected for those that believe to be......
So the election is TOWARDs a group That group is the believers..

But you also say
the elect is not all of the believers.

So...are you saying that the blessings found in Eph 1 goes to only part of the believers?

John 6:39-40
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I see two people being raised up at the last day. Those that God gave Him (Elect) AND those that see and believe.

I noticed you placed in bold the word "and". Are you saying you feel this is another group other then those that the Father gave the Son?

In other words...

Group one...The elect that God gave the Son = believers
Group two...Those that see/understand and believe on Him = believers

Both group make up the Body of Christ

I have to admit I have never heard of this view before.

I do believe that the "and" is not an additional thought but the expansion of the same thought. This is what most all writers would view it.

Like these translations..

ESV
39And(A) this is the will of him who sent me,(B) that I should lose nothing of(C) all that he has given me, but(D) raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who(E) looks on the Son and(F) believes in him(G) should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

NASB
39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of (A)all that He has given Me I (B)lose nothing, but (C)raise it up on the last day.

40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who (D)beholds the Son and (E)believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will (F)raise him up on the last day."

NIV
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


Amp
39And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.

40For this is My Father's will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Cited Is From The NLTse

Infants are not sinners, hence they are not spiritually dead (separated) from God. They are "not guilty". Non guilty people are not condemned. It's actually pretty simple.

I have given these verses to you before -- for which you had no response. There is no use in trying to finesse them to suit your theological fancy. Take them as they are, no nuancing is allowed.May they drill down to your very soul.

Job 25:4 : How can a mortal be innocent before God? Can anyone born of a woman be pure?

Psalm 51:5 : For I was born a sinner -- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 : These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8 :"Yes, I will tell you of things that are entirely new, things you never heard before. For I know so well what traitors you are. You have been traitors since birth."

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If all believers are not the elect will God not "gather" some believers together but rather leave the believers that are not the elect behind?

The elect in Mark 13 are the 144,000 sealed servants of God. Not believers before the Rapture of the Church.

People are elected to service, not to Salvation.

 

[Jarthur001]

this nebulous group of individuals defined as "the elect".

Oh...I don't believe the "elect" are a nebulous group at all...but the way calvinists use the term most certainly defines them as a "nebulous" group since it is not conditioned on anything.

I believe the elect are believing jews in the correct context the word is used in referring to man. I'm a Christian most certainly, but I am not a jew.

This only applies to believing Jews?

"according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,"

Man...you guys are all over the place with what the elect means.

 

[webdog]

This only applies to believing Jews?

"according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,"

Man...you guys are all over the place with what the elect means.

I missed it...where is "the elect" found in that verse? I see "us" being chosen in Christ...but I see no reference to "the elect".

 

[Jarthur001]

The elect in Mark 13 are the 144,000 sealed servants of God. Not believers before the Rapture of the Church.

People are elected to service, not to Salvation.

so...are the 144,000 believers?

and back to this..

Mark 13:26-27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Are you saying that Mark 13 is talking about only the 144,000?

 

[webdog]

I have given these verses to you before -- for which you had no response. There is no use in trying to finesse them to suit your theological fancy. Take them as they are, no nuancing is allowed.May they drill down to your very soul.

Job 25:4 : How can a mortal be innocent before God? Can anyone born of a woman be pure?

Psalm 51:5 : For I was born a sinner -- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 : These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

Isaiah 48:8 :"Yes, I will tell you of things that are entirely new, things you never heard before. For I know so well what traitors you are. You have been traitors since birth."

When you want to discuss Scripture in context...we'll do just that.

 

[Rippon]

Man...you guys are all over the place with what the elect means.

These non-Cals elect to place any meaning they so choose toward the definition of 'elect'. But they are off the biblical mark considerably.

 

[Jarthur001]

I missed it...where is "the elect" found in that verse? I see "us" being chosen in Christ...but I see no reference to "the elect".

This is a hoot.

I ask again,

This election will you choose someone as you vote?

 

[webdog]

These non-Cals elect to place any meaning they so choose toward the definition of 'elect'. But they are off the biblical mark considerably.

I place the meaning I believe context places it in. It's a novel idea...you may want to try it sometime.

It's amazing that an infant cannot be a Christ follower or believer...yet you still refer to them as "elect". This other dispensation of salvation needs to be thrown out with the trash.

 

[Jarthur001]

These non-Cals elect to place any meaning they so choose toward the definition of 'elect'. But they are off the biblical mark considerably.

I have to admit I am smiling all over the place.

good stuff

 

[webdog]

This is a hoot.

I ask again,

This election will you choose someone as you vote?

No...I'm placing my personal vote for someone. The electoral college does the choosing. Your knowledge of politics is a hoot...

Here you go:
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/government/howthepresidentiselected.htm

 

[Jarthur001]

No...I'm placing my personal vote for someone. The electoral college does the choosing. Your knowledge of politics is a hoot...

again I ask....

Will it be your choice as you vote?

you can't say it. can you?

 

[Jarthur001]

Here you go:
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/government/howthepresidentiselected.htm

Thanks...

1st lines of YOUR link...

How the President Is Elected

On This Site

• The Electoral College
• U.S. Presidents

Part 1: How It Starts
Most people who run for president are already famous. After all, if you want to be chosen by a majority of the people in America, it helps if many of them know who you are.

Now is chosen and election the same?

 

[Rippon]

It's amazing that an infant cannot be a Christ follower or believer...yet you still refer to them as "elect".

This 'you' surely is not a personal pronoun, for I have never said such a thing. Perhaps you meant 'you' in the sense of y'all.

 

[Rippon]

Now is chosen and election the same?

Put em' in a corner with no escape and they'll still squirm.

 

[Whowillgo]

I think you and I may be the only ones on the BB who believe this.

I think it's really simple as well.


No, there is at least one other "me" that believes this way. Adam and Eve were not condemend until they sinned being innocent of the knowledge of sin. An infant has no knowledge of sin.