No dead babies, little children, infants in Hell?

[standingfirminChrist]

so...are the 144,000 believers?

the 144,000 are sealed servants just as John wrote in Revelation

and back to this..


Are you saying that Mark 13 is talking about only the 144,000?

Mark 13 is speaking of a gathering from the earth after the Rapture of the Church. He is speaking of the 144,000 sealed servants... elect for a specific service.

 

[Rippon]

the 144,000 are sealed servants just as John wrote in Revelation

Mark 13 is speaking of a gathering from the earth after the Rapture of the Church. He is speaking of the 144,000 sealed servants... elect for a specific service.

So, haven't false messiahs and false prophets appeared throughout Church History? They try to deceive God's chosen ones -- the elect. See Mark 13:22.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So, haven't false messiahs and false prophets appeared throughout Church History? They try to deceive God's chosen ones -- the elect. See Mark 13:22.

False prophets have been around for centuries. And they will even be here after the Church is gone.

If it were possible, they would deceive the very elect.

Not that they could, but if it were possible, they would.

 

[Rippon]

Scripture Cited Is From The NLTse

SFiC, your theory is full of holes, but it's not holy. What do you do with the story of the persistent widow and the unjust judge?

Luke 18:7 :"Even he rendered a just decision in the end. So don't you think God will surely give justice to his chosen people who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?"

The elect ones are not specified as Jews only at a special time in the future with a specific sphere of service in view. These chosen ones are His very own -- ones that He loves exclusively as the husband does in Ephesians 5:25. This is biblical election -- toward salvation.

 

[Rippon]

False prophets have been around for centuries. And they will even be here after the Church is gone.

If it were possible, they would deceive the very elect.

Not that they could, but if it were possible, they would.

I agree. And these elect are made up of people from many different nations and languages scattered throughout the earth.The elect here have nothing to do with your definition of elect as being only Jews in the end times dealing only with a sphere of service.These are the Lord's people -- his sheep, His Body-- His Church, believers, Christians -- elect.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I agree. And these elect are made up of people from many different nations and languages scattered throughout the earth.The elect here have nothing to do with your definition of elect as being only Jews in the end times dealing only with a sphere of service.These are the Lord's people -- his sheep, His Body-- His Church, believers, Christians -- elect.

Rippon, learn who the elect are and then come back and discuss the Word with me.

 

[Rippon]

You need To Answer

SFiC, your theory is full of holes, but it's not holy. What do you do with the story of the persistent widow and the unjust judge?

Luke 18:7 :"Even he rendered a just decision in the end. So don't you think God will surely give justice to his chosen people who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?"

The elect ones are not specified as Jews only at a special time in the future with a specific sphere of service in view. These chosen ones are His very own -- ones that He loves exclusively as the husband does in Ephesians 5:25. This is biblical election -- toward salvation.

You have not addressed this SFiC.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Rippon,

Do you cry out day and night for vengeance?

 

[Rippon]

Rippon,

Do you cry out day and night for vengeance?

Yes, I do. I am of the elect. I daily pray to the Lord to praise Him, and to cry unto Him about the evils all around. Sometimes a part of my silent prayers take the form of Psalm 139, especially verses 19-22.

But you still avoid my posts.Deal with Luke 18:7. Give some feedback on it.Don't run away from your difficulties.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Not all of God's children cry out for vengeance. Proves it is not just the elect that are saved.

I don't seek vengeance for anyone.

My God tells me to love my enemy, not to cry out for vengeance against him.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Cited Is From The NLTse

Not all of God's children cry out for vengeance. Proves it is not just the elect that are saved.

I don't seek vengeance for anyone.

My God tells me to love my enemy, not to cry out for vengeance against him.

You don't believe Christians should cry out to the Lord to avenge the deeds of the wicked?! Notice I said for the Lord to avenge.The Lord will indeed give justice to His elect.

I guess Psalm 73:17-20 is foreign to you :

"Then I went into your sanctuary, O God, and I finally understood the destiny of the wicked. Truly, you put them on a slippery path and send them sliding over the cliff to destruction. In an instant they are destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors.When you arise, O Lord,you will laugh at their silly ideass as a person laughs at dreams in the morning."

But you are still being evasive SFiC.Face the text and try to square it with your notions.

 

[Rippon]

Proves it is not just the elect that are saved.

You stand alone with that view Mr. As one who professes to read and study the Bible -- you have uttered something totally unscriptural with that remark. Show me where in the Bible that anyone who is not of the elect are saved.

Obviously non-Cals think that Christ died for everybody, but they would also say that the elect alone will ultimately be saved.But you, with your unbiblical stance are on slippery ground.

Whose names are written in The Lamb's Book of Life? Yes, the names of the elect alone are written there.No names of the non-elect are thus inscribed.Ya' got a heap of explaining ta do.

 

[David Lamb]

I missed it...where is "the elect" found in that verse? I see "us" being chosen in Christ...but I see no reference to "the elect".

I am struggling to see how the word "elect" means anthing different to "choose". What do you say that God does when He elects someone, if He does not choose them? To me, your argument seems no different to that of someone who says that they can see no reference to the Trinity in Matthew 28.19. (I know you wouln't say that, WebDog! )

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Cited Is From The NLTse

Just curious SFiC, what do you do with 2 Peter 1:10 in your theology? Is it meant only for certain Jews in the very last days?

"So dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen."

Of course it should be evident by now that chosen=elect. Most English Bible translations use the word 'elect' in this verse.

In your estimation that verse has nothing to do with you? There is no need for that examination -- it does not apply to you? Don't you think it's rather risky to say that election has nothing to do with salvation?! Those called and chosen ones should remind you of Romans 8:28-30.No one outside of the called,foreknown,predestined,justified and glorfied are the elect.

 

[David Lamb]

No...I'm placing my personal vote for someone. The electoral college does the choosing. Your knowledge of politics is a hoot...

Here you go:
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/government/howthepresidentiselected.htm

OK, so what am I doing when it comes to a general election here in the UK, and I place my vote for one of the candidates in my parliamentary constituency? Anyway, the fact that the choosing of the American president is done be the Electoral College, not the "Choice College" or the "Choosing College", seems to indicate that "elect" and "choose" are two words for the same thing. Besides, why should we interpret biblical words according to a political process in one country?

 

[Rippon]

Besides, why should we interpret biblical words according to a political process in one country?

Good point David.It seems many American non-Cals are confusing the 'election' of the Bible with 'elections' in America. These folks blur Christianity with Democracy at times.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here I am to join with jarthur, rippon, David Lamb in a bewildering state of confusion regarding the non-Calvinist view of election.

Either tje non-Cals have switched arguments on me, or I have badly misunderstood for many years their position.

Here is what I thought I understood: God indeed elects people, and the result of that election is a place in heaven. The basis of the election is foreknowledge--that is, that God foresees down the centuries who will choose Christ as Savior, and elects them on that basis. In other words, salvation and election are connected.

To be sure, I have read other views: Election is to service, Election is the plan of salvation, God elected the Jews, God elected a group. But in this thread, for the first time, I read that some non-elect people may be saved. The immediate context is that children and infants who die will go to heaven, but are not elect. But it seems to me that some are applying this view to some adults as well.

Most disturbing to me is that up to this point, I thought I knew everything. I now find that even though I still do, I didn't know that.

 

[Outsider]

Consider this:

Originally Posted by Outsider
My wife and I chose to have a child. We didn't choose the child. That doesn't make it less unreal or untrue. We elected to have children but didn't choose any of them. Now, we may also elect to adopt a specific child. If we do, it will be just as true as the others. We will be one family.

There is much beauty in the doctrine of election. Don't limit the joy in it by not being willing to accept all of it.

This is my view of election.
He elected Israel, but there were some who converted to Israel.
His plan of redemption was by the election of grace. Not by the election of works or any other way.

To answer an earlier question, I do believe that when one choose to place their faith in Jesus Christ, they become "Elect". Just not in the way many mean it to be.
When we are saved, we become a true Israelite. We become one inwardly. That includes Israel and Gentiles, not Israel only.

May God bless and many blessings to all on the BB.

 

[Jarthur001]

the 144,000 are sealed servants just as John wrote in Revelation

Yes...but what I keep asking is this...

are not the 144,000 believers? Therefore they are the elect.

Or do you think God seals non-believers for this job?

Mark 13 is speaking of a gathering from the earth after the Rapture of the Church. He is speaking of the 144,000 sealed servants... elect for a specific service.

So far every group you have brought up are believers as I see it. Believers...the Church....the Bride is the elect of God.

I cannot find one verse that would say other wise

 

[lbaker]

I think you and I may be the only ones on the BB who believe this.

I think it's really simple as well.


And what is double condemnation?? Isn't one condemnation enough to send you to hell?

That's pretty much my take on it too.