No dead babies, little children, infants in Hell?

[webdog]

then you sense wrong on this too.

I laugh at your logic.

again lets get back to your game.



when does it say that sin started? Conceived????????

this is a hoot. when will this folly stop??

Tell you what...if you truly wanted to go through this to learn, you would answer my question. If we are taking Psalms literally now (which to me is a "hoot")...are we sinners at conception (Psalm 51) or at birith (Psalm 58)? If it's as literal as you say..."Houston we have a problem"

I'll be back later to tell you what I feel the true meaning of Psalm 51 is...

 

[Brother Bob]

He was spiritually dead before becoming a Christian, he just didn't know it, only when he became alive in Christ was he able to see it.



Me, too - blessings!

Did you know you were a sinner before salvation??

BBob,

 

[Rippon]

Did you know you were a sinner before salvation??

BBob,

Everyone knows they're sinners.Even those who are never saved know they are sinners.The magnitude of the issue is,of course, not realized.

 

[webdog]

Everyone knows they're sinners.Even those who are never saved know they are sinners.The magnitude of the issue is,of course, not realized.

An infant knows it's a sinner

If they can know complex thought processes like God's Law...how come they don't know other complex thought processes?

My son, who's going on 3 is having a hard time understanding pooping on the potty instead of his diapers, and knowing when he has to go. I just told him he's a sinner and he said "yeah"? and laughed while grabbing his Mr. Potatohead.

 

[jdlongmire]

Did you know you were a sinner before salvation??

BBob,

yes, because I had Law preached to me, as well as grace. Paul only had Law before Christ and he believed he had it "down pat".

 

[Amy.G]

An infant knows it's a sinner

If they can know complex thought processes like God's Law...how come they don't know other complex thought processes?

My son, who's going on 3 is having a hard time understanding pooping on the potty instead of his diapers, and knowing when he has to go. I just told him he's a sinner and he said "yeah"? and laughed while grabbing his Mr. Potatohead.

HA! :laugh:

Kids are great!

 

[Jarthur001]

Tell you what...if you truly wanted to go through this to learn, you would answer my question. If we are taking Psalms literally now (which to me is a "hoot")...are we sinners at conception (Psalm 51) or at birith (Psalm 58)? If it's as literal as you say..."Houston we have a problem"

I'll be back later to tell you what I feel the true meaning of Psalm 51 is...

conception

 

[Brother Bob]

yes, because I had Law preached to me, as well as grace. Paul only had Law before Christ and he believed he had it "down pat".

jdlongmire or James, are the "elect" saved by Grace through faith??

BBob,

 

[jdlongmire]

jdlongmire or James, are the "elect" saved by Grace through faith??

BBob,

yes - that is what Scripture teaches

 

[Brother Bob]

yes - that is what Scripture teaches

So, you "elect" babies have "faith"?

You all made that up, to get away from your forefathers preaching that the road to hell would be lined with baby bones. You say all babies that die are "elect". You made that up also. If not give scripture where babies have grace "through" faith?

The original doctrine of your forefathers was that babies go to hell, at least one said the road to hell would be paved with baby bones, the best I remember. This generation of "reformed" have changed that doctrine, because it was running away the sheep.

BBob

 

[jdlongmire]

So, you "elect" babies have "faith"?

yes - saving faith, just as John the Baptist had in the womb.

Luke 1

41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

You all made that up, to get away from your forefathers preaching that the road to hell would be lined with baby bones. You say all babies that die are "elect". You made that up also. If not give scripture where babies have grace "through" faith?

The original doctrine of your forefathers was that babies go to hell, at least one said the road to hell would be paved with baby bones, the best I remember. This generation of "reformed" have changed that doctrine, because it was running away the sheep.

BBob

are you holding the sins of the fathers against the children?

besides, most reformed theologians hold to at least the children of the elect are elect and many more hold to the election of all infants, dying in infancy - even Calvin:

While, therefore, Calvin teaches that there are reprobate
infants, and that these will be finally lost, he nowhere teaches that they
will be lost as infants, and while they are infants; but, on the contrary,
he declares that all the reprobate 'procure' their own destruction by
personal acts of impiety, wickedness and rebellion. Consequently, his own
reasoning compels him to hold (to be consistent with himself), that no
reprobate child can die in infancy; but all such must live to the age of
moral accountability, and translate original sin into actual sin."

from Boettner's The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination
Ch. 11 - Infant salvation

 

[Brother Bob]

yes - saving faith, just as John the Baptist had in the womb.

I have read where John was filled with the Holy Ghost. If faith was there, we have to add that ourselves, we have no scripture for it, that I know of. BTW, was John the Baptist ever lost???

Luke 1

41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"


are you holding the sins of the fathers against the children?

I am sorry, but it is you that say, I was concieved in sin, and lay that charge to the infant. unless I misunderstood you.



besides, most reformed theologians hold to at least the children of the elect are elect and many more hold to the election of all infants, dying in infancy - even Calvin:
from Boettner's The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination
Ch. 11 - Infant salvation

....................

 

[jdlongmire]

are you holding the sins of the fathers against the children?

I am sorry, but it is you that say, I was concieved in sin, and lay that charge to the infant. unless I misunderstood you.

You and I and all Mankind, post-fall, are conceived as a sinner. I was referencing the idea that you are bringing up things that the old reformers believed.

Are you familiar with the term and idea of semper reformanda?

 

[Brother Bob]

You and I and all Mankind, post-fall, are conceived as a sinner. I was referencing the idea that you are bringing up things that the old reformers believed.

Are you familiar with the term and idea of semper reformanda?

What if in the semper reformanda, you add to scripture that infants have faith, and have no scripture for it?

BBob,

 

[Rippon]

Just curious SFiC, what do you do with 2 Peter 1:10 in your theology? Is it meant only for certain Jews in the very last days?

"So dear brothers and sisters, work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen."

Of course it should be evident by now that chosen=elect. Most English Bible translations use the word 'elect' in this verse.

In your estimation that verse has nothing to do with you? There is no need for that examination -- it does not apply to you? Don't you think it's rather risky to say that election has nothing to do with salvation?! Those called and chosen ones should remind you of Romans 8:28-30.No one outside of the called,foreknown,predestined,justified and glorfied are the elect.

SFIC didn't answer this post of mine. Quoting from the NIV this time :"Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure..."( 2 Peter 1:10)"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith;test yourselves."( 2 Cor.13:5)

So,SFiC, how you you apply these verses?Can they be applied to anyone today?

 

[webdog]

conception

So Psalm 51 is literal...and Psalm 58 is figurative

The point of Psalm 51 is David speaking of his life being so vile and corrupt it seems he was born that way. His sin was brought to the surface, and he saw how truly sinful he was. That is called hyperbole, which is rampant throughout the Psalms and Scripture.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The very fact that David said of his son when he died "He cannot return to me, but I can go to him" shows that all babies who die in infancy go to heaven.

Had David merely meant the grave when he made this statement, he would have continued to refuse food or to have committed suicide right then and there.

Had David thought that child of his went to hell, then after making the statement "I shall go to him," David would have quit serving the Lord and would have fought against God's people.

He did not do either.

David knew that child was in heaven with God... as all children who die in infancy are.